Snakes ARE affectionate

[prairiepanda]

Originally Posted by millertime89

100%. It's selective breeding which is the way natural selection occurs in captivity which is a part of evolution.

I've never heard of a snake breeder selecting for personality traits. Maybe there are some that I've never heard of, but the overwhelming majority of snake breeders select for visual traits. So selective breeding has nothing to do with it. Also, selective breeding in captivity is artificial selection, not natural selection. What makes captive snakes easier to tame is having human exposure and captive care conditions from birth.

[RAD House]

With out any support you may be right. I like to think of it as personal hypothesis.

[lady_bug87]

Originally Posted by prairiepanda

I've never heard of a snake breeder selecting for personality traits. Maybe there are some that I've never heard of, but the overwhelming majority of snake breeders select for visual traits. So selective breeding has nothing to do with it. Also, selective breeding in captivity is artificial selection, not natural selection. What makes captive snakes easier to tame is having human exposure and captive care conditions from birth.

There are breeders that breed for temperament

[sophiedufort]

Originally Posted by eminart

Also, have you ever heard of "burden of proof"? I'll summarize. If you make a positive claim (i.e. snakes love) then the burden is on you to prove that. Now, if you knew anything about debate, you'd counter by saying I'm making a positive claim that I know snakes do not love. But, you'd be failing to acknowledge that I'm simply following what all the evidence points toward, and the consensus of all scientific thought on the matter to this point.

Let me ask this, please: what type of evidence is suitable for you? I am curious, mainly because I started this thread as a result of consistent snake behavior that I believe to be affectionate. I didn't start this thread just for the sake of the topic. My snakes, whom I handle daily, display signs of affection, and that's a fact. Also called evidence. I am not going to relist all the examples I provided in earlier posts. Only one of them, that is quite compelling. Missy, my Dumeril's boa, will not leave me or my husband. She loves kisses on the side of the head, and comes back for more, poking at my lips. She 'massages' my neck (I am sure you all know what I'm talking about) ONLY when I have migraines. Each and every time. She will only stop if I move her away. She will not do the massage when I feel well. Primitive or not, snakes' displays of affection are there. Not everybody notices or recognizes them. Some people have dozens of snakes throughout their life, and they just go through a care routine, day in, day out, without learning anything new from it, but still thinking that they know just about everything about snakes.
So, getting back to my question In what way the factual description of my snakes' behavior fails to constitute suitable evidence that snakes can show affection? Is it because I am not a scientist? I just don't get it.

[prairiepanda]

Originally Posted by lady_bug87

There are breeders that breed for temperament

I'll accept that. I wouldn't claim that they don't exist just because I haven't heard of them. But I still stand by my point that the majority of captive bred snakes are bred for visual traits. Although, if sophiedufort's snakes happen to descend from temperament-selective lines, the topic of selective breeding would certainly enrich this conversation.

[eminart]

Originally Posted by sophiedufort

Let me ask this, please: what type of evidence is suitable for you? I am curious, mainly because I started this thread as a result of consistent snake behavior that I believe to be affectionate. I didn't start this thread just for the sake of the topic. My snakes, whom I handle daily, display signs of affection, and that's a fact. Also called evidence. I am not going to relist all the examples I provided in earlier posts. Only one of them, that is quite compelling. Missy, my Dumeril's boa, will not leave me or my husband. She loves kisses on the side of the head, and comes back for more, poking at my lips. She 'massages' my neck (I am sure you all know what I'm talking about) ONLY when I have migraines. Each and every time. She will only stop if I move her away. She will not do the massage when I feel well. Primitive or not, snakes' displays of affection are there. Not everybody notices or recognizes them. Some people have dozens of snakes throughout their life, and they just go through a care routine, day in, day out, without learning anything new from it, but still thinking that they know just about everything about snakes.
So, getting back to my question In what way the factual description of my snakes' behavior fails to constitute suitable evidence that snakes can show affection? Is it because I am not a scientist? I just don't get it.

In short, I reject every bit of this as evidence. Because it isn't evidence. Your personal experiences do not equal science. All of those behaviors can be explained in ways that do not involve love and affection.

Science doesn't only set out to confirm a set of beliefs, it also conducts experiments to eliminate all other answers.

What would convince me is scientific evidence. Actual studies. Scientists rationally conducting experiments without the taint of their own emotion and wishes.

And again, WHY would a snake have evolved emotional affection? There is ZERO reason to believe that reptiles love. Personal experience is not evidence. There are people who sincerely believe, and will tell you, while in tears, that they were abducted by aliens and anally probed.

[lady_bug87]

Originally Posted by prairiepanda

I'll accept that. I wouldn't claim that they don't exist just because I haven't heard of them. But I still stand by my point that the majority of captive bred snakes are bred for visual traits. Although, if sophiedufort's snakes happen to descend from temperament-selective lines, the topic of selective breeding would certainly enrich this conversation.

Animals adapt. captivity itself changes behavior through generations

[sophiedufort]

Originally Posted by eminart

Personal experience is not evidence. There are people who sincerely believe, and will tell you, while in tears, that they were abducted by aliens and anally probed.

I think that your example brushes too much on extremes, and it does not bring justice to your comments.

[eminart]

Originally Posted by sophiedufort

I think that your example brushes too much on extremes, and it does not bring justice to your comments.

You just finished making the claim that your snake massages your neck when you have a migraine.

[Minkness]

One breeder who specializes in BPs remarked a noticeable difference in the 'defensive' nature of BP morphs. Most white morphs of any breeding are more docile and have to even try to strike him (BELs) where as darker morph types (like super cinnamons) are generally more defensive and almost always try to bite him. He does not put an absolute guarantee on this behavior however. Same species, different morphs, all genders.

Also, previously stated somewhere in all this mess is that 'all inelegant beings have the capacity for emotion'....what about people with aspgergers? Or other emotional detachment issues? Sure it's case by case scenarios, but really? Every intelligent being? Birds are highly inelegant for their brain size. Some are loyal, affectionate, mean, depressed, or purely instinct driven. Words we choose to use are strictly meant for human understanding. How can we possibly describe the truth behind animal thoughts, opinions, or emotions when we are still learning the human side of things?

I have a snake that hisses like the dickens whenever I open his enclosure. My first thought is not "omg he hates me!" So why would I 'feel' like he loves me when he curls up on my shoulder for 2 hours while I watch a movie? (Note, I have a naturally high temp normally and he's usually under my shirt. So, plenty warm).

I have one snake that lets me pet his head...the other two freak out if they even suspect me to be moving towards their head. 2 of my snakes will eat while in my hand...one will only eat if I put the meal on a flat surface and tease him with it. Different personalities? Absolutely. Different levels of 'emotion'? Perhaps...fear, Wanting to be alone, the urge to eat? Those could be classified as a type of emotion. Sadness, anger, love, ect....not to much.

Even looking at the neanderthal brain, humans even lacked those emotions on a higher level. The need for security and general bonding over trust, taking care of each other's physical needs, and so on, trumped the feelings of depression, contentment, and amorous ideas of affection. Those levels didn't exist in us until much, much later in our cultural and biological development. Even now we are constantly growing and changing our own emotions to the point some people feel too much and are diagnosed with disorders and syndromes ect.

I personally believe in compatability over love. Just because I love someone does not mean that I can live with them. And just because I know someone can take care of me doesn't mean I'll love them. That's a complexity that I struggle with on a daily basis.

In many ways, I envy my reptiles ability to be more detached. What I wouldn't give to be a Vulcan!!!

[sophiedufort]

Originally Posted by eminart

You just finished making the claim that your snake massages your neck when you have a migraine.

Yes, I did. And this is correct. Far from your 'anal probe' example.
Just because you never experienced something like the 'massage' I am talking about doesn't make it irrational or farfetched.
Please note that I did not insinuate that you're crazy, even though I disagree with you.

[eminart]

Originally Posted by sophiedufort

Yes, I did. And this is correct. Far from your 'anal probe' example.
Just because you never experienced something like the 'massage' I am talking about doesn't make it irrational or farfetched.
Please note that I did not insinuate that you're crazy, even though I disagree with you.

Let me put it this way. You're not The Snake Whisperer. Everyone here has experienced the same behaviors in our reptiles. Many of us, like myself, have kept, literally, hundreds, some even thousands through the years. Yet, we attribute these behaviors to other factors. What do you think you've seen that we haven't? Judging by your first post, you seem to believe that you have some talent of reading these behaviors "the correct" way, while the rest of us are misinterpreting them as something else. Our view is that the behaviors are attributed to factors that would make sense to a snake as we understand them. Your view is that you know differently, and that snakes actually possess emotions that would not make any sense to have evolved in a reptile. What makes your more extraordinary view right, other than your personal experience?

[MDT]

Originally Posted by sophiedufort

I was just reading this article yesterday. Please have a look:
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/19/sc...upid.html?_r=0

NYT is now peer reviewed? Good to know. I'll cite that next conference I lecture at. Thanks!!!


(geez...ending a sentence in a preposition....that's crass)

[sophiedufort]

Originally Posted by eminart

Let me put it this way. You're not The Snake Whisperer. Everyone here has experienced the same behaviors in our reptiles. Many of us, like myself, have kept, literally, hundreds, some even thousands through the years. Yet, we attribute these behaviors to other factors. What do you think you've seen that we haven't? Judging by your first post, you seem to believe that you have some talent of reading these behaviors "the correct" way, while the rest of us are misinterpreting them as something else. Our view is that the behaviors are attributed to factors that would make sense to a snake as we understand them. Your view is that you know differently, and that snakes actually possess emotions that would not make any sense to have evolved in a reptile. What makes your more extraordinary view right, other than your personal experience?

Let me reply to this: I said it time and time again in this thread, and I will say it again: I like to think that my snake's behavior is affective. Name it whatever you want, it is there, it is happening. I never attempted to compare their behavior to our human emotions. Everyone else does though, I don't know why. I guess that this is where the misunderstandings begin.
I don't believe that my point of view is extraordinary, right or wrong. I have merely expressed it in this forum, and I accept that many people disagree, some stronger than others.
On another note, I don't believe that keeping hundreds or thousands of snakes necessarily attracts experience, other than a lot of handling throughout the years. As a matter of fact, having so many snakes makes it nearly impossible to have proper, personalized interaction with them, and it ends up being a housekeeping experience (feeding them, breeding them, removing their poop, etc.) I believe that extensive interaction with one individual snake, or just a few instead of many, offers much more opportunity to observe reptile personality and behavior.
I don't claim to be an expert in snakes, or in any other pets for that matter. I am pretty sure that I don't know everything about my snakes, even though I did some extensive studies related to their particular species. I do claim, however, that I am a rational person and a good observer. I only speak from my experience, not from assumptions or hearsay.
Last, but not least, I love all my pets with all my heart. Their well-being is paramount, and I am constantly striving to understand and meet their needs, as well as recognizing and acknowledging their behavior. I think that that makes me a sensible snake keeper, and entitles me to claim that my observations, although not scientific, are pertinent and should be given some credit.
I hope that this replies to your query.

[sophiedufort]

Originally Posted by MDT

NYT is now peer reviewed? Good to know. I'll cite that next conference I lecture at. Thanks!!!


(geez...ending a sentence in a preposition....that's crass)

I didn't say it was peer reviewed. I just mentioned it because I found it online. It is quite interesting.

So, take a deep breath and relax, no need to bite