Snakes ARE affectionate

[jjhill001]

Originally Posted by lady_bug87

If you're educated than you'd know that taking an ectothermic animal out of its controlled environment for extended periods of time can cause them to become lethargic AND it can impact their overall health.

Anyone else remember that guy who took baths with his snakes?

[Nuxodom]

Originally Posted by lady_bug87

If you're educated than you'd know that taking an ectothermic animal out of its controlled environment for extended periods of time can cause them to become lethargic AND it can impact their overall health.

Hmm. I've never experienced this...ever. My snakes are out for extended periods of time quite often with no adverse repercussions whatsoever, and all have lived full lives being in excellent health. No lethargy, no health issues...hundreds of snakes, decades of handling.

I guess I'm just lucky.

[eminart]

Originally Posted by sophiedufort

The topic of 'snake affection' is very divided, and backed by old scientific findings that are lately being disputed. The 'limbic system' theory has become outdated, and more scientists now look at the snake brain from different angles.

Can you link to any peer-reviewed findings by these scientists on reptiles and their love and affection?

[sophiedufort]

Originally Posted by eminart

Can you link to any peer-reviewed findings by these scientists on reptiles and their love and affection?

I was just reading this article yesterday. Please have a look:
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/19/sc...upid.html?_r=0

[lady_bug87]

Originally Posted by Nuxodom

Hmm. I've never experienced this...ever. My snakes are out for extended periods of time quite often with no adverse repercussions whatsoever, and all have lived full lives being in excellent health. No lethargy, no health issues...hundreds of snakes, decades of handling.

I guess I'm just lucky.

How silly of me. you're right obviously

[lady_bug87]

Originally Posted by sophiedufort

I was just reading this article yesterday. Please have a look:
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/19/sc...upid.html?_r=0

Not to nitpick but this is about intelligence not emotion.

[Nuxodom]

Originally Posted by lady_bug87

How silly of me. you're right obviously

I'm not right or wrong...just saying what I have experienced. No fact or opinion, just experience.

[Aaron_S]

Originally Posted by sophiedufort

Thank you for selecting these quotes from my earlier postings. They do, indeed, sum up my point, but I respect your opinion that they say something else. It is your choice how you interpret my statements, although I would much prefer if they were taken for what they are, instead of being speculated upon.

I started this thread because I was curious to find out other people's opinions. Quite a few members thought it was laughable, and replied as such. They are entitled to do so, I respect that. Some others quoted old and/or outdated scientific evidence. I respect that too. But a few were unfairly rude, not only towards me, the original poster, but also towards the entire pet snake idea. I do not respect that.

I am not trying to impose my point of view. But I will not shut up when the comments posted in this thread turn nasty. This forum was created with the pets' well-being in mind, or so I believe. Yet, it seems that some people keep waking up on the wrong side of the bed, and use the forum and its members as a punching bag. I am deeply disappointed.

Oh, please note that these comments are not directed at you personally. I just summarized what happened so far, and what prompted my comments. But I don't have to convince you, do I? You are welcome to interpret my posts in every way you wish.

And yes, I do read a lot, I am highly educated, and I always strive to learn as much as I possible can about my pets, their behavior (both in the wild and in captivity) and their traits. The topic of 'snake affection' is very divided, and backed by old scientific findings that are lately being disputed. The 'limbic system' theory has become outdated, and more scientists now look at the snake brain from different angles. But that's irrelevant to me. I have six amazing snakes, they all display a primitive closeness that I like to call 'affection', and I believe there's nothing wrong with perceiving it as such.

You speculate about everyone who posts. You speculate that people think low or don't care for their animals because they don't agree with you. You continually come across as a hypocrit. You ask everyone to treat you in a way you aren't willing to treat them. No wonder you've had people push against you.

You say you're curious about others opinions yet you started this thread by saying you know it's divided. Why come for more other than to get antagonize? You have yet to post anywhere else than this thread and 1 other.

Originally Posted by Nuxodom

Hmm. I've never experienced this...ever. My snakes are out for extended periods of time quite often with no adverse repercussions whatsoever, and all have lived full lives being in excellent health. No lethargy, no health issues...hundreds of snakes, decades of handling.

I guess I'm just lucky.

How do you know they've lived full lives and in excellent health? What are you comparing them to to determine these parameters?

[eminart]

Originally Posted by sophiedufort

I was just reading this article yesterday. Please have a look:
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/19/sc...upid.html?_r=0

Interesting. But, that's a non-peer-reviewed article about how reptiles might be a little more intelligent about how to obtain food than we previously thought. That's not our topic here. Nobody disputes that finding food is a natural behavior for reptiles.

[sophiedufort]

Highlights from the article I read yesterday:

In the plethora of research over the past few decades on the cognitive capabilities of various species, lizards, turtles and snakes have been left in the back of the class. Few scientists bothered to peer into the reptile mind, and those who did were largely unimpressed.
“Reptiles don’t really have great press,” said Gordon M. Burghardt, a comparative psychologist at the University of Tennessee at Knoxville. “Certainly in the past, people didn’t really think too much of their intelligence. They were thought of as instinct machines.” But now that is beginning to change, thanks to a growing interest in “coldblooded cognition” and recent studies revealing that reptile brains are not as primitive as we imagined. The research could not only redeem reptiles but also shed new light on cognitive evolution.
Scientists say that many early studies of reptile cognition, conducted in the 1950s and ’60s, had critical design flaws.
Now that scientists have gotten better at designing experiments for reptiles, they are uncovering all kinds of surprising abilities. Some of the most intriguing work involves social learning. The conventional wisdom is that because reptiles are largely solitary, asocial creatures, they are incapable of learning through observation.
The field of reptile cognition is in its infancy, but it already suggests that “intelligence” may be more widely distributed through the animal kingdom than had been imagined. As Dr. Burghardt put it, “People are starting to take some of the tests that were developed for the ‘smart’ animals and adapting them to use with other species, and finding that the ‘smart’ animals may not be so special.”

[lady_bug87]

Experience to experience then: I keep Amazon tree boas. They are very defensive bordering on aggression. If i shut their heat off for a while they don't move as fast. They don't strike as much. That has nothing to do with me. That's the temperature change affecting their behavior.

[sophiedufort]

Originally Posted by lady_bug87

Not to nitpick but this is about intelligence not emotion.

With respect, it is well known that any intelligent being is capable of emotion. Intelligence is defined as the capacity for learning, reasoning, understanding, and similar forms of mental activity; aptitude in grasping truths, relationships, facts, meanings, etc. While this may be limited and primitive in reptiles, and by no means comparable to other species, including humans, it doesn't make it any less plausible.

[lady_bug87]

Originally Posted by sophiedufort

Highlights from the article I read yesterday:

In the plethora of research over the past few decades on the cognitive capabilities of various species, lizards, turtles and snakes have been left in the back of the class. Few scientists bothered to peer into the reptile mind, and those who did were largely unimpressed.
“Reptiles don’t really have great press,” said Gordon M. Burghardt, a comparative psychologist at the University of Tennessee at Knoxville. “Certainly in the past, people didn’t really think too much of their intelligence. They were thought of as instinct machines.” But now that is beginning to change, thanks to a growing interest in “coldblooded cognition” and recent studies revealing that reptile brains are not as primitive as we imagined. The research could not only redeem reptiles but also shed new light on cognitive evolution.
Scientists say that many early studies of reptile cognition, conducted in the 1950s and ’60s, had critical design flaws.
Now that scientists have gotten better at designing experiments for reptiles, they are uncovering all kinds of surprising abilities. Some of the most intriguing work involves social learning. The conventional wisdom is that because reptiles are largely solitary, asocial creatures, they are incapable of learning through observation.
The field of reptile cognition is in its infancy, but it already suggests that “intelligence” may be more widely distributed through the animal kingdom than had been imagined. As Dr. Burghardt put it, “People are starting to take some of the tests that were developed for the ‘smart’ animals and adapting them to use with other species, and finding that the ‘smart’ animals may not be so special.”

Again NOTHING to do with love.

[jjhill001]

Originally Posted by sophiedufort

I was just reading this article yesterday. Please have a look:
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/19/sc...upid.html?_r=0

This is the article I reference in all of the are my snakes dumb posts I see. It's a great article and study that points out some problems in previous testing. But that is about learning not about feeling. If we were talking about can you condition your snake into certain behaviors the answer would be yes. But you are talking about a snake actively wanting to be around you for reasons beyond if feeling like it can get something from you.

Garter Snakes are known to excite when the top of a cage opens because they know food is likely, that's a learned behavior. But if you put a snake on the ground it will slither away from you.

[lady_bug87]

Originally Posted by sophiedufort

With respect, it is well known that any intelligent being is capable of emotion. Intelligence is defined as the capacity for learning, reasoning, understanding, and similar forms of mental activity; aptitude in grasping truths, relationships, facts, meanings, etc. While this may be limited and primitive in reptiles, and by no means comparable to other species, including humans, it doesn't make it any less plausible.

With respect. You're grasping at nonexistent straws