Feed Guide for Newbies (Rats v Mice)

[Chris72]

Rats Vs Mice,

I wanted to post something like this for a few weeks as I have seen a few members who:

Mention that they don't believe there is a difference between rats V mice.
Are feeding a size of rodent that is clearly wrong. (eg pinkies to 8 month old snakes)
Feed based on when the feeders are grown enough to offer to a snake.

A few things first:

Yes I have been gathering information from around the net for this post and I would like to acknowledge that (no) I did not simply sit down and bang this out off the top of my head. (I am not Aaron)

I offer this thread with 100% certainty that there are keepers who have healthy happy Royals with feeding programs that are largely different. this thread is not intended to challenge you. Rather it is intended to benefit the animals housed by those who have takes Pet Smart at face value on proper care. Be nice; we are on the same team people!

Overall mental and physical health of your animal will be based on an number of things which diet is only one (important) part. As most of us know the list includes, but is not limited to; proper heating type, proper temp, proper humidity, opportunity to seek cover, limited daily handling of nocturnal animals during a time when they should be resting, etc, etc.

Normal Diet in the wild:
Largely the african soft furred rat (looks more like a Gerbil) and depending on local and availability sometimes a shrew or stripped mouse. Most of us do not have access to African Soft Furred rats locally and thus we defer to the common rat.

That leaves us with two things to consider:
Nutritional value of Rats v Mice....
The right sized rodent to feed your Royal Python...


What to feed:

Rats, larger than mice, have larger skeletal systems, organs and more fur, Rats are also known for having a higher fat content compared to mice. Anecdotally, young snakes begin to grow like weeds once changed over to rats.


Per RodentPro....

A Juvenile Rat has:
Crude Protein: 56.1%
Crude Fat: 27.5%
Natural Ash: 14.8%
Energy as K/Cal:g 5.55 K/Cal
Vit- A & E (in Ui): 151,389 & 139.2

An Adult Domestic Mouse
Crude Protein: 55.8%
Crude Fat: 23.6%
Natural Ash: 11.8%
Energy as K/Cal:g 5.25 K/Cal
Vit- A & E (in Ui): 578,272 & 100.4

Additionally the adult mouse has statistically insignificantly higher levels of Calcium, Phosphorus and Magnesium. (basically a wash) However a sub adult rat will have a statistically higher level of both Fe (iron) and Zn (zinc) which have a direct correlation to many things including red blood cell count, O2 transfer and respiratory health (Fe), and overall immune system health (Zn).

The differences we see are what is going to account for the differences in growth of the animal overall. An interesting chart tracks the growth rate of animals raised on mice V rats. This should be viewed as anecdotal as other variables and feeding habits of the animals could not be confirmed. Nonetheless...interesting:

(Growth Chart: Feed Compare)

[Chris72]

How Much should my Royal Python be eating:

Simply put: Your snake should not be fed when the rats based on what you have on hand, what you feel like you can afford or when they grown large enough. (no names)

A) The size of the prey item given to a python should be equivalent to or slightly larger than the width of the largest part of its body.

If your supplier gave you a great deal on rat pups and your snake is now two inches in diameter you must feed more than one of those pup(pies) per week. In addition to the above statement (A) lets take a look at this sizing photo which gives us a visual and weight reference:

(Sizing chart and weight chart)

[Chris72]

AND The sizing chart:

[Chris72]

So if you have a healthy snake at 450g to 500g you are looking at the white rat 5 from the left or 4 from the right.(at the least)

The day I brought home my little Queen Bee (Charlotte) she devoured a live rat similar to the one third from the left...She was all of 7 inches long and was slightly heavier than a pencil. They were feeding he live and I wanted her to eat but she has since been switched to F/T. If you feed live (or stunned) remember that the rodent if fluffy and it is not actually as big as you think! (dip it in hot water and you'll see...but not alive!)

Now, there are protocols for starting and switching a hatchlings which we will not get into as that is not the focus of this thread. Live v F/T which again is not the focus of this thread.

Give you snake what it needs, in the quantity it needs and if you are thinking to yourself: "There is no way that rat will go in that snake"....try....you are probably wrong.

Have fun....welcome...if you are not sure...ask.

[Aaron_S]

Do you have a lot of time on your hands lately?

Solid write up though.

[Chris72]

Been gathering that for weeks! (Takes time fir us mere mortals). But thanks!

[jarich]

An interesting write up, but still sort of misses the point in my opinion. Both are perfectly acceptable food items, if fed in quantity.

While the amounts you are speaking of regarding the different vitamins and minerals may be true, you dont go into the actual requirements of the animal. Though one may have a statistically significant amount more than the other, the question remains: is that necessary? Does the rat lack the necessary calcium? Does the mouse not have enough iron or zinc? As there is no evidence to support those claims, it appears that this is not the case.

Your growth rate chart also stops at four months. What happens after? What happens when both groups are raised to adults? Would this chart then even out? If so, what difference does it make how quickly they grow? It also does not state a source so that we can check out how many were used in each group (is it statistically significant or were there only one or two animals used in each group). How many mice were fed and how many rats? Were the subjects all from different family lines or not? Obviously genetics will play a large role in growth rates also.

While it seems you spent some good time on this, it also seems you have researched to back up your preconceived notion as opposed to researching to find out the answer. When you are talking the difference between mice and rats, the amount you feed your snake seems much more important than which is fed. The rest is simply preference.

[mykee]

The growth of ball python after four months would still show a huge difference in size. I have fed female balls exclusively mice and they take a LONG time to get to size (years longer than rat-fed females).

[Chris72]

Originally Posted by jarich

An interesting write up, but still sort of misses the point in my opinion. Both are perfectly acceptable food item if fed........ ................... .......................... more important than which is fed. The rest is simply preference.

The point of the thread is mainly to benefit newbies with newly purchased snakes>>as noted above.

We have recently seen some stunningly wrong activities by some newbies where in one particular instance the snake died.

Guessing that newbies lurk for sometime before they ask any questions this thread may have saved an animals life.

Before I said a word I recognized those that prefer mice in an attempt to show respect for that choice.

The thread was not intended to be an indepth brawl on rodent choice as I made clear in the O.P. (we can do that elsewhere please)

[bcr229]

Originally Posted by Chris72

Give you snake what it needs, in the quantity it needs and if you are thinking to yourself: "There is no way that rat will go in that snake"....try....you are probably wrong.

This. I had one of those WTF moments this week with my normal BCI. She has been pounding small rats and two days after her last feeding she was out hunting. I looked at her, then looked at her, and warmed up a medium f/t rat even though inwardly I was thinking "no way".

Way. It went down the hatch and she spent the next four days in her hot side hide. My little girl is growing up.

[Starbuck]

Do you have sources for your information, or is this from personal experience and calculations?

[Chris72]

Originally Posted by Starbuck

Do you have sources for your information, or is this from personal experience and calculations?

Sure:

The nutrient breakdown is from RodentPro.

The bit about nutrient function is personal knowledge. (I am an elite amature endurance athlete) knowledge gained from school, decades of working with coaches and lots of friends who race at a higher level than I.

The size chart is from another feed supplier site on the web.

What size to feed: common knowledge. Corroborated by senior member on the board of course.

PM me if you want a refferance for something specific. (It took time)

[smy_749]

Nicely done.

[rocknhorse76]

All great info. I do know that every time I increase prey size with my snakes, they hit a rapid growth spurt. My BP was on mice forever and seemed topped out at 36" and around 800-900grams at around 5 years old. When I started feeding him small rats, he grew a lot. He's now 44" and 1400 grams at about 7 years old, and eats medium rats every 3 weeks. So I definitely agree with the post!

[KORBIN5895]

That's too much reading for me.