Performed my first successful force feed today

Shmoges · 04-23-11, 05:57 PM

I was very worried if it would even work but after multi attempts and a uncooperative snake I finally got him to accept it. This is on a baby albino kenyan sand boa who has been on meds for weeks and hasn't eaten for 2 months. It probably wasn't vital that I get food in him but he just shed for the first time since we got him ( possibly his 2nd shed in his life), so I thought its either meds tonight or food. He still seems relatively health except for the symptoms of this annoying RI. I have been administering enrofloxacin daily for over 25 days and nebulizing twice daily with albuterol for like 6 days now, and just got metronidazole that is to be given orally daily as well. I am anxious to get some of that F10 when it gets imported to the states in may but I doubt I can use it for an infection that has almost ran its course. I wonder if the vet is taking me for a ride sometimes but if it keeps the snake alive its worth it. Praying he doesn't regurge!

mykee · 04-23-11, 08:35 PM

Force feeding is so terribly stressful on any snake at any time. In this case, while the snake is ill with an RI, and it's immune system is compromised, it may have been an extra very bad idea.

mistersprinkles · 04-23-11, 08:50 PM

Oooh dude noo.. You FF'd a snake with a respiratory infection?
That's like commandment breaking bad. Please don't do that again.

Also, your vet might be a bit of an idiot. You shouldn't feed an animal that can avoid eating when it's on metronidazole. Metro is a very indiscriminate and very powerful anaerobic antibacterial. That means all the gut flora in the snake will be killed by the metro. Not something you should prescribe for a respiratory infection. I HIGHLY suggest that you get a new veterinarian and demand your money back from this one. As soon as metro was prescribed, if it's for the RI, I would have laughed and left. RI= lungs= aerobic. Metro is for ANAEROBIC. There are no anaerobic RI's. It's an oxymoron. The vet might just be a moron minus the oxy. If anything that snake should be getting amoxacillin, not metro.

The snake should be on an expectorant and a corticosteroid (if breathing is labored) and only if that + proper husbandry didn't cure the RI, then you'd consider an antibacterial.
Typically, respiratory infections are the result of incorrect temp and humidity.

Your vet is treating a gunshot would with a posicle. He's an idiot. Get a new one. I'd also put a stop payment on anything you haven't settled up for and threaten to go to court with an expert witness. He won't risk being discredited over 300 bucks. If this guy was the one who suggested you feed today, btw, I'd like his email address as I have a few choice words for him.

Also if you're going to force feed you're better off using Phillipe de Vosjollis liquid formula and a syringe. It is much less stressful for the snake to drink its meal.

Shmoges · 04-23-11, 09:37 PM

No it was feeding day and I decided to try it myself after the snake took no interest even with zombie dance and confinement with the food. I was worried yet relieved that he ate and now I hope I haven't made things worse. I will talk to the vet about the new med though, I have not administered it yet, maybe its a good thing IA fed him cause otherwise I would have done meds. i do feel that the original reason for the RI was my fault, I put to much faith in under tank heaters and of course the smallest most expensive animal gets sick and the others are still fine.

So should I insist I be refunded for this recent med and be given amoxacilin or just continue with the albuterol nebs and previous oral med?

I did purchase some nutriback for once he was better to help with gut flora. I assumed the antibacterials would affect that.

mistersprinkles · 04-23-11, 09:49 PM

I wasn't implying that it was your fault. I was more thinking it was pre-existing when you got it. I'm not here to blame I just want your snake to not be sick

.

I'm not a doctor. I do have experience with respiratory infections in both myself and my ex to the extent that a doctor at a hospital thought I was a respiratory technician once though :P. I've had asthma my whole life so I've learned a lot about what does what, as well as how. Respiratory infections are usually treated pretty much the same way across the board, the same way bacterial infections are. You give a rat, a dog, a person and a fish amoxicilin.

I don't want to suggest any actual specific meds to you, nor do I suggest you take any of what I'm saying as written in stone. These are just examples and stuff that I feel applies based on my own experience medicating myself, my ex, fish, etc.

Metronidazole is an anaerobic antibacterial. It kills bacteria that do not breathe oxygen, or better said, bacteria that can not breathe oxygen. If anaerobic bacteria are exposed to more than a trace amount of oxygen, they will die-- just like if you take oxygen away from aerobic bacteria, they'll die. A lung, logically, is not an anaerobic area. It is an oxygen exchange and processing vessel. Therefore, an "anaerobic respiratory infection" is an oxymoron.

Based on the facts

1)You've only mentioned an RI, and nothing else, so we assume the snake only has an RI.

2) Respiratory systems are as aerobic an environment as you're going to get in a biological system

3) You can't have an anaerobic infection in a highly aerobic environment

4) orally administered metronidazole has absolutely no way whatsoever of traveling from the digestive tract into the respiratory tract

5) orally administered metronidazole can NOT enter the respiratory tract because the first thing a snake does when you force it's mouth open is close it's aorta and breathe through the snorkel in the base of its mouth

Based on this, I think your vet is a moron, and I hope you'll find a new one and seek his medication advice.

RandyRhoads · 04-23-11, 10:15 PM

A snake can close it's aorta?...Or did you mean something else.... Isn't the aorta after the pulmonary system?

Shmoges · 04-23-11, 10:16 PM

I really appreciate you honesty and also my fiancée is a survivor so far of asthma herself and said I knew they would prescribe albuterol for an RI lol. I am definitely going to use the intellectual ammo you have given me to find out what doctor suggested this med and get the right med.

Shmoges · 04-23-11, 10:25 PM

Another thing, I realize its very stressful to FF a animal but after what I feel as a novice snake keeper seemed to be quite a long time without food for such a young animal and being in still good physical condition for being ill for so long I decided it would be an OK calculated risk and also a learning experience for ourselves for FF. What are the cardinal rules for RI treatment and can and cannot's btw?

mistersprinkles · 04-23-11, 10:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shmoges

Another thing, I realize its very stressful to FF a animal but after what I feel as a novice snake keeper seemed to be quite a long time without food for such a young animal and being in still good physical condition for being ill for so long I decided it would be an OK calculated risk and also a learning experience for ourselves for FF. What are the cardinal rules for RI treatment and can and cannot's btw?

Anything stressful should be avoided. That's for sure. If you find yourself where you absolutely have to force feed, look up the liquid formula it really is less stressful.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RandyRhoads

A snake can close it's aorta?...Or did you mean something else.... Isn't the aorta after the pulmonary system?

No it's before. When a snake is swallowing prey, the ability to breathe using the throat is diminished or gone anyways, so they breathe through the snorkel in the base of their mouth which is sort of an alternate air intake.

Shmoges · 04-23-11, 10:51 PM

I have heard about a pinky emulsifier that injects it into the snake is that the same thing?? I assume not?

Again I really didn't like doing this and am regretting it the more I think about it. I hope things will be OK.

Is the liquid food something I can use in conjunction with oral meds? I am just concerned about caloric intake of the poor small animal. He can really only hold about 2-4 cc's of liquid in his mouth at a time without it squirting out and blocking his trachea.

BTW I have to say, I have learned more from the people on this site than other sites or any one person hands down. I haven't been offended or shot down for my Ill advised or preconceived notions and It makes me all the more confident that ever. Even if I make a mortal mistake its all the more important for me to learn and be a better herper, thank you all.

RandyRhoads · 04-23-11, 11:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mistersprinkles

Anything stressful should be avoided. That's for sure. If you find yourself where you absolutely have to force feed, look up the liquid formula it really is less stressful.

No it's before. When a snake is swallowing prey, the ability to breathe using the throat is diminished or gone anyways, so they breathe through the snorkel in the base of their mouth which is sort of an alternate air intake.

Are you sure you don't mean trachea? I'm not seeing what the aorta has to do with the respiratory system. Can you educate me on what you mean? Is the aorta of a snake mean something different? You say aorta I think of the blood pumping out of the left ventricle of the heart.

Shmoges · 04-23-11, 11:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mistersprinkles

Anything stressful should be avoided. That's for sure. If you find yourself where you absolutely have to force feed, look up the liquid formula it really is less stressful.

After the FF ordeal I have left him alone and I hope he will survive.

Shmoges · 04-23-11, 11:05 PM

He means trachea

Jendee · 04-23-11, 11:05 PM

force feeding a sick snake is never good that animal is not gonna eat while they are sick, infect one of the best ways to tell your snakier is recovering is they will get an appetite back. I do think if your animal is close to death from lack of eating say 6 plus months of no food force feeding can bring a snake back but it needs to be done by or with advice from someone who knows what they are doing

Shmoges · 04-23-11, 11:09 PM

Hi Jendee! Thanks for chiming in. Yeah the more I think about it I should have medicated after introducing food and moved on. My thoughts were, well he is still very active and if not for the symptoms he is a healthy resilient snake..... so I figured a little stressful nutrition might help...??? I have bad dreams and think of various outcomes for this situation in my sleep. Perhaps its a sign of my nihevity (sp) with herping and anxiousness for him to get better.