Does this look odd?

newticus · 05-08-05, 10:30 PM

This is my new crested. I got it from work. It's 8 inches and full grown? Look at it's hips

It appears in fine health. It has no problems walking, it's pooped already. It's fat. It's jaw seems totally fine. It's tail is a little stiff, not like a young cresteds. But that may be normal, i've never handeled an adult till now.

Could it be MBD?, genetic, dislocated?
Does it need to be fixed? and how might i go about it?
thanks for you help

babysweet · 05-09-05, 08:07 AM

Looks to me like flop-tail syndrome... but surely one of our "pros" can answer more definitively.

If it is flop-tail, it's generally thought to be caused by poor environment. Not enough foliage, bark, etc., to climb and hide on. You will notice the cresty upside-down on the glass, with his tail flopped to one side.

So far, no one has been able to say whether or not this is a deficiency, a genetic trait, although there are many theories.

The general feeling is the cresties do fine with flop-tail, and it's of no concern (other than to make sure that your crestie NOW has lots to climb on/hide in).

It's also been said that these cresties are still very breedable. I am strongly in disagreement here. Due to the fact that we really DON'T know what causes flop-tail, and haven't proven that it's NOT genetic, I wouldn't be breeding this gecko. Too much of a risk. These guys are being bred so quickly, that it wouldn't take long for a genetic problem to sweep through the population.

That doesn't mean that he's not adorable, and won't make a great pet (cause I'm sure he will!)... but I *personally* would not breed a deformed cresty, regardless of how mild the deformation might be.

But, once again, strictly my opinion.

Kim

CDN-Cresties · 05-09-05, 10:52 AM

I agree with Kim, it does look like FTS. Another point worth mentioning is that FTS is not limited to captive populations but is also found in the wild.

D Healey · 05-09-05, 11:11 AM

I would disagree with being able to breed the gecko as if you speak to most breeders they would probably tell you that they have geckos with FTS and it has not proven to be a genetic trait. But having said that you should also keep good records as we are learning new things every day, just my opinion but i have spoken to several of the top breeders in the states as well as buy from them they all have had geckos with FTS without a reason for it and i have also purchased many geckos over the years that had FTS but as long as they are up front about it it is not a big deal. I also feel that the gecko you have has more of a twisted pelvis and i think that has more to deal with a geckos desire to retain it as they are quite capable of dropping it Thanks Doug.

Betty Miskie · 05-09-05, 11:36 AM

In the well respected "Rhacodactylus" book by Philippe de Vosjoli, Frank Fast and Allen Repashy, they say that "on the other hand, floppy-tail will usually not affect the gecko's health or its ability to reproduce. To prevent floppy-tail, provide adequate amounts of calcium and D3 and landscape your enclosure with bark and plants to reduce the probablity of your geckos spending extended amounts of time on vivarium walls.
My New Years baby hatched out very big, very healthy, is one of my best eaters, and yet, I can't keep him from sleeping on the glass. In doing so, he is getting what is called floppy tail. Maybe because of his growth rate he did lack calcium but I highly doubt it as I leave calcium in their enclosures 24/7 and include it on crickets and in their fruit. His cage is decorated with lots of hanging plants and yet, he loves the glass.
I think in my limited gecko handling that there are some cresties that just love to hang upside down no matter what!
My two cents.
Betty

newticus · 05-09-05, 03:24 PM

I have only had the gecko for about 24 hours.
But so far i have not seen it hang out on the glass for any extended period of time.

And my geckos twisted pelvis is from it wanting to keep it's tail?

thanks

D Healey · 05-09-05, 05:12 PM

That is just a personal observation as it is not explainable why it happens but i think some would rather keep it than drop it possibly it makes them more appealing to their mate. The only reason i say this is that is seems quite normal for them to drop it therefore it odd that they would choose to keep a semi useless limb. Please also note that some tails flop to the side creating the twisted pelvis and some flop straight down creating an arch in the base of the tail this form is less noticable unless you know what to look for just my opinion Thanks Doug.

meow_mix450 · 05-09-05, 05:22 PM

im a chameleon person but this reminds me of lazy tongue that chameleons get when they get cup feed everyday without free ranging. So I guess that it lost its ability to use its tail.

Meow

newticus · 05-09-05, 06:58 PM

If she dropped her tail, would her pelvis untwist?
and might it be better to have her tail fall off?, i'm only thinking that it might be uncomfrtable to have a twisted pelvis

Hey jay, yeah her tail is pretty useless, it barely moves. I think i told you i was looking for a green crested, well she's green ^_^ (yes i know, olive, but green cause it sounds prettier)

babysweet · 05-09-05, 07:13 PM

From what I understand, FTS is permanent. Having never witnessed the day-to-day goings on of an FTS stricken gecko, I really couldn't say whether their tail is uncomfortable.

However, without extremely reliable information saying that no tail is more comfortable, I would let nature take its course. I surely wouldn't intentionally try to get her to drop it...

Kim

stickytoedgecko · 05-09-05, 08:15 PM

Last year I purchased 2 females who's tails looked similar to that (one of them was in all reality much worse than yours). That was 7 months ago, and altho there tails are not totaly strait there has been a substantial improvement. unfortunatly I don't have before and after pictures of "Little girl and Olive" (these two females) I will try to get a current pic of them and post them for the world to see. This may not be the same for your little guy, but keep an eye on him it might get a little better with a change of enviorment.

babysweet · 05-09-05, 08:42 PM

stickytoedgecko, I would really love to see pics of your un-FTS'd gecko! Truly, I think we all would.

You're fairly new to the forum if I'm not mistaken, and you'll realize very quickly that there are more than a few of us here who LOVE to delve into the unknown.

There is so little information on FTS (Rapeshy's book is pretty much it, unfortunately) that really any beliefs or knowledge we have is personal or second hand at best.

And don't be afraid to jump in and speak your mind. We don't offend easily.

We're all here to learn, and that's what really keeps me here... the fact that even the resident experts LOVE when someone can lend a fresh perspective, or new information about any Rhac-related topic.

For a bit of referenced information, the Rhac book says:

"With floppy-tail syndrome, the damage to hip bones and vertebral process, once it has occurred, is permanent. However, it is often minor and has little consequence in terms of either the aesthetic appearance or the breeding potential of these lizards. If kept in large glass enclosures with climbing areas or in screen cages, the mechanical and behavioural stresses that contribute to this problem can be minimized."

They also surmise that a mild calcium deficiency may be at work. I would possibly believe this in very large collections, or even small collection with "trough feeding" techniques (every animal gets the same diet regardless of age/weight/lifestyle) to be a contributing factor. However, hearing that *EDIT*'s collection has witnessed a case of FTS (which is small in comparison to commercial breeding colonies) and knowing the amount of personal attention and nutritional detail that goes into her care, I would discount the deficiency theory, at least slightly.

*EDITEDITEDIT* -- it was actually Betty's gecko who was appearing to develop FTS... although my original observation still stands, as it is my understanding that Betty is also among the best of the best when it comes to Crestie care and husbandry... and one of our resident pros

So sorry for any confusion. *EDITEDITEDIT*

Also, why would it be that out of so many geckos kept in similar or identical cages, that only a few would develop this syndrome? I still lean towards a genetic predisposition for FTS, although I would compare it to hip dysplasia in dogs... takes a combination of genetics and environment to allow the condition to develop.

Keep in mind that this is all hypothetical, and sheer heresay, as I have nothing to back this up whatsoever. Also, the only way to really prove this the case would be to breed floppy-tail to floppy-tail to see if there was a marked increase in occurence. I don't know that the end justifies the means.

Kim

stickytoedgecko · 05-10-05, 05:22 PM

Well I am very sorry to say this but I think the book was right. I took a really good look at the worst one last night and reilized that when i made the observation that her tail was straitghtening out she was gravid, and after she laid 2 days ago its right back to where it was. I am sooo sorry to mis-inform like that. I just think I was getting my hopes up that it was getting better. Once again I was wrong, and I do appoligise for my mistake.

DragnDrop · 05-10-05, 05:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by babysweet

However, hearing that Hilde's collection has witnessed a case of FTS

Huh? ?? ???

Who? Me? My cresties?

babysweet · 05-10-05, 06:18 PM

WHOOPS... sooooo sorry Hilde

It was Betty who mentioned that she had a Rhac developing FTS....

SOOOOOO sorry. Working late, going in early... need sleep. It's not like me to make such an error. I'll correct the original post as well.

:medbugged

Sorry sorry sorry....

Kim