Het Paperwork

[Derrick]

Whats the point of getting paperwork on Hets? What does this paperwork look like? Does everyone ask for it? And does it really guarantee anything?

Just courious about this as I picked up a couple of hets recently and I never really thought about asking for any paperwork. Mind you I feel I can trust the breeder. If I felt other wise paperwork wouldnt really settle my mind about the transaction.

Derrick

[brutus]

Good question, I've wondered this myself!

[BornboreD]

Paperwork I believe is necessary. It gives the buyer confidence when dealing with hets. At least when you buy a homozygous animal you know what you got. When buying hets, how are you suppose to know it's not a normal?? You don't til you breed it. Now yes, you can put faith in a breeer that you trust but at the same time......it's insurance for you, and it even provides the breeder with insurance as well in certain situations. In my opinion it's just smart business ethic on both parties behalf.

Paper work usually or SHOULD AT LEAST have the following.

- Picture of the animal
- Description of the animal
- Hatch Date
- Weight at purchase time
- Price
- Date of purchase
- Breeders signature

There's other things that an be added as well. The breeder I work with provides even more info on his paperwork.

Just my thoughts....

Colin

[mykee]

What Colin said, AS WELL a picture of the animal shoud be included with the Certificate of Authenticity to show that the animal in question is the animal pictured. Also, paperwork is necessary if you were to sell the animal, it's now YOUR responsibility to provide proof, as MANY if not most breeders do not keep picture identification of the het animals that they have already sold.

[Dave Barsalou]

What can you do? Sue someone in court? Prove it's not a het. You can't there is not realiable blood test (or any test at this time) which will give you the results you are looking for. Take a look in the last couple of pages for "Demon" (that's his user name) on the other popular site and see what hets did for him. He lost $22,000 US Dollars and bought them from "reputable" breeders in the US. There is no garenttee. Any satistician they will tell you there is no proof, no leagal recourse. I amagine it doesn't help but it is truthful information.

Dave

[Jeff_Favelle]

What can you do? Sue someone in court? Prove it's not a het. You can't there is not realiable blood test

Reputation is everything. One or more transaction where someone sells a het that isn't a het and its game over. I wouldn't want to risk $100,000 a year for my rep to make a piddly $2,000 sale. Screw that.

So yeah, paperwork is a good thing. Don't let anyone tell you that it isn't.

[mykee]

I know of a reputable big breeder here in Canada (Ontario) who purchased some "het" for caramel albinos from a VERY large breeder down in the States a few years ago, and has produced albinos from the snakes, but no caramel albinos.

[RandyRemington]

That's the case that got me wondering if albino and caramel might be alleles years ago. Maybe this year someone will finally breed a caramel to an albino and get an answer for us.

Another wish item for me is paternity blood tests for ball pythons. They are already available for most all domestic farm animals and even several species of fish for crying out loud. I've heard of at least one well documented case of sperm retention so if an economical paternity test were available it would be cheap insurance for both the buyer and seller.

[Derrick]

cool thx guys. These were just Het Albinos. So it wasnt a massive outlay of cash and I do feel I can trust the breeder. There are a few projects I'm considering down the road though and I will be sure to get paperwork for those if I decided to go ahead with it.

Thx
Derrick

[CHRISANDBOIDS14]

If the paperwork is proper, it also allows you to sue the seller if it turns out its not a het.

C.

[Mark]

the problem with paperwork is that it is only as good as the sellers rep.

[Linds]

I know if I were buying a het from a private sale, through a person who I was unaware of, I would most definitely want paperwork. While paperwork *could* be forged, I would verify it with the breeder, to see in fact that it was prior to that. Breeders should all have their own copis of the document. As well as if I were a breeder selling hets, I would want that protection for myself. A lot of shady people out there try to pass off normals as hets, I wouldn't want my name attached to those.

[Markus Jayne]

Today, customers must feel confident in their purchases. There are more scammers out there than you think. Yes there have been many documented cases of failed hets purchased from big breeders and in regards to the one Mykee was talking about, I know of 3 people that purchased caramel hets and have yet to produce any caramels as a result. Even after multiple breedings.

I don't thing anyone could successfully sue another breeder though. Mathematically, it is possible for you to breed hets and never produce a visible, however unlikely. The legal fees would kill you.

So how does this happen in the first place? I have given this lots of thought realizing that some of the breeders in question are BIG and there is no way they would jeapardize their business and reputation by purposely selling normals as hets. Human error, that's how. Let me explain.

Situation #1: The breeder has invested in a het male because that's all he can afford or get at the time. They breed to a bunch of normals to produce possible hets. Next season they pick up an actual visible morph and at 6 months old the male is 600 grams and the breeder tries to breed him. Sure enough the male breeds and he now takes over for the het. Afterall the het male only covered these females only once this season. And the visible has taken over. So wishful thinking allows the breeder to presume that the babies are all fathered by the visible and not the het. Well quess what. They are all possible hets in my mind regardless how many times the visible bred them. Also I have had clutches fathered by two males. Last year I produced a clutch with both Mojave's and Pastels in it, so it is possible that even if you back up your young visible with a co-dom and all the babies com out normal looking, you still have no guarantee who the father is. I hatched out 11 eggs once from a single pastel daddy and only got one pastel! Bad odds do happen! What I'm saying is that I was one snake awy from all the babies looking normal. If a breeder had also bred a visible to the female, will he then presume that the visible was the daddy considering no pastels were in the clutch? I would guess that he would.

Situation #2: Big breeder has lots of snakes. Too many to handle himself. Needs employees. Big breeder get order for caramel albino hets and yells out back to his employee to grab a pair for customer. Employee is listening to loud music and only hears 'albino hets'. There in lies the mistake.

I know of many cases where employess have switched clutches, stolen eggs for their own personal gain. That is the problem with getting too big. You loose control of quality control and mistakes can happen. Not always, but can.

I'm sure there are many more scenarios that can lead to mistaken identity of normal looking snakes, but I don't think for a minute that the BIG breeders knowingly try to mislead of scam customers. There is far to much a stake...or should I say SNAKE!

Get the paperwork with picture ID and all the details attached. Have your breeder sign the paperwork and always feel free to call them to verify such transactions if you are purchasing hets from customers of theirs. It's all part of there overall responsibility.

Take care,

Mark

[Derrick]

Wow thx a lot Mark. Gives me something to think about for down the road.

Thx
Derrick

[CHRISANDBOIDS14]

Yeah, both my het albinos came from well-known people and I still wanted papers for both of them.

C.