ball X blood.

daiyoukai · 01-12-05, 11:15 PM

http://www.chondroweb.com/DrFrankenstein/BloodBall.htm
sure it's been posted befor. But it's still new to me. I remember reading about it somewhere but never seen pics.

Im thinking this is more beautiful then a bateater. The color's, the head, the eyes.... everything fits. the ehads are almost retic shaped. Like it has that lil something a blood lacks but with the added curves of a ball. wonderful snake and if anyone knows more about this hybrid post links/pictures/information. Thanks.

concept3 · 01-12-05, 11:19 PM

that is definetly one of my favorite looking hybrids. LOL they just look so ....... mutant?

CHRISANDBOIDS14 · 01-12-05, 11:23 PM

......I dissagree with hybrids, and I think that looks weird. The only hybrid that I for some reason dont have a problem with is Jungle corn/kings, I dont know why I dont dissagree with those, but I dont like hybrids. How do you keep those anyways? Average the humidity for balls and bloods? I dont want a "ball" that is 6ft long and weighs 15lbs. Lol.

C.

daiyoukai · 01-12-05, 11:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by CHRISANDBOIDS14
......I dissagree with hybrids, and I think that looks weird. The only hybrid that I for some reason dont have a problem with is Jungle corn/kings, I dont know why I dont dissagree with those, but I dont like hybrids. How do you keep those anyways? Average the humidity for balls and bloods? I dont want a "ball" that is 6ft long and weighs 15lbs. Lol.

C.

thats because you are a hypocrite. lol

JAdkins2451 · 01-12-05, 11:43 PM

I am no expert, but how can you say your against hybrids, or disagree with them. But you like a hybrid. That makes no sense.

**Andy_G** · 01-12-05, 11:50 PM

I don't mind hybrids that occur or can occur naturally...but I hate hybrids that come from animals whose parents are each from a different part of the world...I fail to see how that doesn't make sense. I dislike the bloodxball not only for that reason but I also don't really like their look too much.

Edited for spelling(it is late haha).

Double J · 01-13-05, 12:00 AM

All I can ask is WHY?

These snakes are fine the way they are. Why **** around with potentially polluting the captive gene pool for future breeders?

I just don't get it.

I don't know. I am a dart frog guy.. and we keep things as they were in nature as best we can. But.. darts are a different thing. Anybody will be able to get wild balls for quite some time. As for wild dart frogs.. these are a different story. Soon (within the next 2-4 years, we may not be able to get a number of pumilio or tinctorius morphs because their habitats will be completely destroyed and the frogs themselves extirpated or extinct (yes, with some morphs this has already happened). Therefore, dart breeders keep things incredibly pure for that reason alone. We keep these animals because we celebrate the beauty that mother nature and evolution has given them, rather than what we could change them into through selective breeding for abnormal and odd traits. I am proud to know that the beauty of my dart frogs is something that evolution has given rise to, rather than being a product of ones ego or market pressure.

Though my position is biased..... I still just don't get it. I can honestly see no reason for creating these hyrbids.. except maybe greed or contempt.

gonesnakee · 01-13-05, 02:31 PM

Intergrades occur naturally, Hybrids on the other hand do not, they are "created". I think certain Hybrids are super cool, but why anyone would want to cross something with a BP is beyond me. Ugly cross IMO, but I hate short fat Pythons. I prefer Colubrid crosses where cooler patterns & colors are brought out. Plus I'm a bit of a Hypocrit also when it comes to Hybridizing Pythons. What I wouldn't hesitate to do with Corns, Kings, Milks I would really have to debate with Pythons, but then if I had a Jaguar well...

Mark

thunder · 01-13-05, 04:49 PM

it is not true that hybrids do not occur naturally. several species are known to hybridize where their ranges overlap. being a birdwatcher, i have encountered several obvious hybrids in the wild.

Steve · 01-13-05, 04:57 PM

I'm not one for hydrids at all, but this is a nice looking snake

gonesnakee · 01-13-05, 05:25 PM

They are not called hybrids really though, but intergrades. Both are pretty much the same thing but by calling Man's "toying" Hybrids & Mother Natures overlapping territories stuff Intergrades it helps keep things straight on who's who & what's what. More importantly on what's "Natural" as so many people are morally challenged by these things LOL Make sense? Mark

Double J · 01-13-05, 11:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by gonesnakee
.....More importantly on what's "Natural" as so many people are morally challenged by these things LOL Make sense?....

In many circumstances, this is hardly a laughing matter.

The way you use the term "morally challenged" seems to ooze sarcasm. Though it now may seem to be of little consequence to freely hybridize animals, and pay no heed to localities and subspecies, in the near future hobbyists will see the folly of their ways with a number of species. Wild-type specimens will cease to exist in the hobby, and exportation of wild specimens may restricted due to strict CITES regulations, or there may be no wild type specimens left in the wild due to extirpation or extinction.

Still, this goes light years beyond amateur herpetoculture.

Why am I so strongly opinionated on this subject? I have been to South America, and have seen the incredible diversity that nature has given rise to. Many naturally occurring poison dart frog morphs only occur in incredibly small, isolated, and vulnerable pieces of habitat. It is shockingly easy to lose these unique frog morphs forever due to habitat destruction. If there are only limited numbers of these specimens collected for herpetoculture, why not keep the bloodlines pure? If crosses and hybrids are created, and the wild type specimens in captivity die off, we can never get them back. And often, these small and isolated patches of habitat become cattle pasture very quickly and thus are no longer a suitable habitat for these animals and they become very rare, or completely disappear. At that point, hobbyists would have forever lost this naturally occurring morph due to irresponsible breeding practices, and cannot bring in new pure specimens because they are either gone, or are no longer allowed to be exported.
This could have easily happened with Dendrobates azureus (blue poison dart frogs). Original import numbers were around 200 individuals. Notably, these frogs can be readily hybridized with Dendrobates tinctorius. Thankfully, keepers were responsible enough to realize that these frogs would not be exported forever. Zoological institutions and hobbyists worked hard to breed these frogs true in vast numbers, and have thus cemented pure, wild-type specimens of this species into the hobby indefinitely. I know for a fact that hobbyists are ecstatic that these frogs were not crossed with tinctorius..... because we will likely never see another exportation of wild azureus to the public ever again. This could have been a horror story.. and we could have a ton of hybrids in the hobby.. but we do not.. and I am incredibly grateful for the hard work and morally sound judgements made by dedicated breeders in the past.

Again, this is a different ballgame than ball pythons at the time being...... but in time it may not be. Do we really know the TRUE state of wild ball python populations? With all of this selective breeding going on, I see little inclination for breeders to strive to produce animals that are wild-type... and instead aim for mutations such as piebalds and ghosts etc etc. Again, I highly doubt that wild ball populations are in any danger at this point in time.... but it is still food for thought nonetheless. Personally, I prefer the look of wild type ball pythons to albinos or pieds any day. And I am absolutely sure that hobbyists would love to have wild type specimens if they were absolutely unavailable.

I just hope that hobbyists will consider these issues with a more serious attitude. These are not simply paints that we can mix as we see fit. Instead, we should be thankful that we have the priviledge to keep these animals in glass boxes and plastic containers. They certainly do not owe us anything.

daiyoukai · 01-14-05, 12:27 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Double J
In many circumstances, this is hardly a laughing matter.

The way you use the term "morally challenged" seems to ooze sarcasm. Though it now may seem to be of little consequence to freely hybridize animals, and pay no heed to localities and subspecies, in the near future hobbyists will see the folly of their ways with a number of species. Wild-type specimens will cease to exist in the hobby, and exportation of wild specimens may restricted due to strict CITES regulations, or there may be no wild type specimens left in the wild due to extirpation or extinction.

Still, this goes light years beyond amateur herpetoculture.

Why am I so strongly opinionated on this subject? I have been to South America, and have seen the incredible diversity that nature has given rise to. Many naturally occurring poison dart frog morphs only occur in incredibly small, isolated, and vulnerable pieces of habitat. It is shockingly easy to lose these unique frog morphs forever due to habitat destruction. If there are only limited numbers of these specimens collected for herpetoculture, why not keep the bloodlines pure? If crosses and hybrids are created, and the wild type specimens in captivity die off, we can never get them back. And often, these small and isolated patches of habitat become cattle pasture very quickly and thus are no longer a suitable habitat for these animals and they become very rare, or completely disappear. At that point, hobbyists would have forever lost this naturally occurring morph due to irresponsible breeding practices, and cannot bring in new pure specimens because they are either gone, or are no longer allowed to be exported.
This could have easily happened with Dendrobates azureus (blue poison dart frogs). Original import numbers were around 200 individuals. Notably, these frogs can be readily hybridized with Dendrobates tinctorius. Thankfully, keepers were responsible enough to realize that these frogs would not be exported forever. Zoological institutions and hobbyists worked hard to breed these frogs true in vast numbers, and have thus cemented pure, wild-type specimens of this species into the hobby indefinitely. I know for a fact that hobbyists are ecstatic that these frogs were not crossed with tinctorius..... because we will likely never see another exportation of wild azureus to the public ever again. This could have been a horror story.. and we could have a ton of hybrids in the hobby.. but we do not.. and I am incredibly grateful for the hard work and morally sound judgements made by dedicated breeders in the past.

Again, this is a different ballgame than ball pythons at the time being...... but in time it may not be. Do we really know the TRUE state of wild ball python populations? With all of this selective breeding going on, I see little inclination for breeders to strive to produce animals that are wild-type... and instead aim for mutations such as piebalds and ghosts etc etc. Again, I highly doubt that wild ball populations are in any danger at this point in time.... but it is still food for thought nonetheless. Personally, I prefer the look of wild type ball pythons to albinos or pieds any day. And I am absolutely sure that hobbyists would love to have wild type specimens if they were absolutely unavailable.

I just hope that hobbyists will consider these issues with a more serious attitude. These are not simply paints that we can mix as we see fit. Instead, we should be thankful that we have the priviledge to keep these animals in glass boxes and plastic containers. They certainly do not owe us anything.

you are blowing this out of proportion. For every hybrid snake I think it s safe to say there is at least 10,000 captive's of each around the world. People dont normaly hybrid rare animals nor do they sell them to someone who wouldnt know what they are. There will never be a hybrid epidemic because hybrids arnt the easiest things to make in pythons.

Double J · 01-14-05, 12:52 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by daiyoukai
you are blowing this out of proportion. For every hybrid snake I think it s safe to say there is at least 10,000 captive's of each around the world. People dont normaly hybrid rare animals nor do they sell them to someone who wouldnt know what they are. There will never be a hybrid epidemic because hybrids arnt the easiest things to make in pythons.

This is absolutely the wrong attitude to take with respect to this. In fact, I would consider it a dangerous one. Still, we could argue until the proverbial "cows come home," and I would have changed your opinion little or at all. It brings to mind that old saying about arguing on the internet.........

But what about dishonesty or simple unintended ingorance with respect to the buying and selling of crosses? I believe that crosses of naturally occurring morphs are more undesirable than species X and species Y hybrids. You would be surprised to discover that *there are* a number of breeders and dealers out there who are unscrupulously misrepresenting crosses as pure animals either knowingly or unknowingly. There are tons of mukked up "jungle" carpet pythons out there or example that are simply sold as "jungles". I especially would hate for this to happen to someone who would want to breed ... let's say...pure Biak GTPs for example, but unknowingly getting some sort of cross that looks like a Biak... but may only be truly known once their offspring look wonky.... and it is then too late.

I think this adds many new and difficult variables and hazards for people who want to breed wild-type animals.
In my opinion, there is simply no good reason for hybridization in captivity. I think that in itself is a good enough reason to avoid it.