Thoughts on Jungle Corns

marisa · 01-21-04, 02:50 AM

O.k. first let me state my personal position in all honesty on colubrid hybrids: I have none. I don't feel strong either way yet. I thought I would by now. A couple years ago when I first got my kings and corns I figured more time in the hobby and I would just feel one way or another. But that didn't happen even after constant reading on the net, forum reading, etc. I have yet to find that one statement, fact or position that really stands out enough to "swing" me either way.

I strongly believe Kingsnakes/cornsnakes and their localities should be captive bred and kept to the "standard' for their locality. But at the same time, I feel there is a strong, seperate market/enthusiasium for both strict locality kings/corns AND hybrids. So both areas can maintain their respective interests, while keeping what they feel is important around (i.e. localities or hybrid lovers, more hybrids) and not creating just one huge messy blood lines, no locality etc markets. It hasn't happened yet and locality animals are fairly easy to find still especially in the states, as well as hybrids and the lines aren't really that blurred yet from what I can tell.

How do you or did you personally decide if you want to produce hybrids, or even enjoy them as something else? (this is not a thread about why hybrids are wrong or not really, more of a personal thought, experience, point type thread please as I have read it all and so have you most likely)

I am looking forward to your thoughts and opinions on what made your mind up.

Marisa

Simon Sansom · 01-21-04, 05:07 AM

Hi Marisa,

I'm not a big hybrid fan for he following reason; I have not seen a single one that's really an improvement over either of it's parent types/species, in my humble estimation...

Just my two cent's-worth.

Cheers!

Simon

Linds · 01-21-04, 11:38 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by marisa
as well as hybrids and the lines aren't really that blurred yet from what I can tell.

Exactly. The problem with hybrids is that you cannot tell. Once two animals are hybridized in captivity, the babies go out and may be bred with a pure animal, and babies may be sold as pure, or their grandkids might be sold as pure or whatever, if they only end up with 10% or less foreign blood, you won't be able to tell the difference (in some species, you may not be able to tell even if it has much more blood, sometimes even half), and you will be thinking you have a purchased a pure animal to add to your "pure" breeding program, then by no fault of your own, would be passing off impure offspring as pure.

SerpentLust · 01-21-04, 12:24 PM

I like Linds' statement. It's always been my thoughts, and only my thoughts that I personally do not find it very appealling to mix and hybridize. However on the other scale, I don't mind them, I don't loathe breeders that hybridize and do it honestly. Telling people that what they're selling is a hybrid and then explaining it. Anyone can say "This is a Jungle Corn" and a novice that's just been looking through cornsnake types may purchase it thinking it's a corn snake.

So my opinion is that as long as there's honesty, I don't have a problem with it. But I personally wouldn't hybridize as I don't find any reason to.

Jenn

vanderkm · 01-21-04, 03:42 PM

Sorry this will be long - but interesting topic to me ---

I got a young adult jungle corn because the opportunity came up and I wanted one to use as an example of hybridization for public education (the shows the local herp club puts on). I decided I was not interested in breeding them, so sold him, but ended up with two of his offspring back in return for a breeding. I may change my mind about breeding them because I do think they are, in a somewhat artificial way, more attractive than either parent species - the yellow bands from the cal king add an abnormally strong contrast to both the albino and normal version of the snakes - and that bright, intense look appeals to me and to others who have seen them.

I believe strongly that anyone who breeds hybrids or intergrades or morphs should identify what they produce to their buyers. This is an issue for me because my cornsnake focus is on creamsicles which are a hybrid or intergrade depending on the classification of the month. There is no color in pure corns that compares to a good creamsicle for me, so if I am going to breed, I am going to work with what I like. I breed animals in order to share what I appreciate with others and to enhance the offspring, through selection, to be even more pleasing over time. In order to produce the creamsicle patterns I want, I will produce a lot of offspring that are intergrades. I am committed to identifying them as such when I sell them and have decided I will not be accountable for what everyone I sell a snake to does with its progeny down the line. I have investigated means of permanent identification (tattoo, microchip, scale clipping) but none seem satisfactory.

I believe that it is acceptable for me to take this position and to breed and sell creamsicle intergrades. I would hold the same position if I was to breed jungle corns, which I may decide to do.

I think the only enforcement that will work to ensure that herp breeders are honest in identifying their stock is the market demand. The hobby cannot dictate that it must happen because there will always be careless, unscrupulous or dishonest breeders who will pass 'contaminated' offspring off as pure. The purity of stock is not any different than the accuracy of feeding, shedding or breeding records or the care and health maintenance that a breeder provides. It is all about a 'quality product'.

The buyer will dictate where they are willing to spend their money - if pure is important to them, they should only spend their $$ with a breeder they trust to honestly represent the stock. I have no concern for the ignorant buyer that gets fooled into buying something 'contaminated' because I think the responsibility is on the buyer to ensure that they get what they pay for. There are boards of inquiry, experience, reputation and personal judgement that all play a role in developing that trust. It is a lot like buying an animal that is supposed to be het for a trait - if I were breeding a specific morph or variety of corn, I would not buy a pure corn of that variety from someone that I would not trust enough to buy a het from. And I am prepared to pay a premium for that trust - it is worth a lot to me. It is often the people who are looking for a bargin that get fooled into thinking they get something for less than it is worth. Like they say - Quality costs but poor quality costs more in the long run.

I believe I am involved in (the early stages of) breeding quality creamsicles, honestly represented as intergrades. I do it because, despite the fact that they are not pure - I like how they look and I like being part of a hobby where I can breed what I like to own and I believe other people will want to own. For me, having my Honduran milksnakes that are pure and of known genetics is just as, but not more, important.

just my opinion

mary v.

Ontario_herper · 01-21-04, 03:49 PM

Simply put hybrids are bad. Can anyone give me an exapmle of how producing hybrids benefits snakes in any way shape or form (no pun intended)?

**Andy_G** · 01-21-04, 04:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ontario_herper
Simply put hybrids are bad. Can anyone give me an exapmle of how producing hybrids benefits snakes in any way shape or form (no pun intended)?

Can you give me an example of how producing hybrids harms snakes?

Why does this hybrid thing come up all of the time? It almost seems paradox-like. Some people are for it, some are against it and some don't care either way. I don't think people will come to a 100% agreement either way. If you like them, go for it even if someone thinks you are "playing god" because we humans have been doing that for a long time, we didn't just start so it isn't really a good point to make in a debate. If you don't like them then don't buy them, don't try to force others to sway the same way as you.

Linds · 01-21-04, 04:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Andy_G
Can you give me an example of how producing hybrids harms snakes?

I challenge you to find a 100% pure Indian python... there are quite a few different species/subspecies in captivity that, unless you pluck them out of the wild, are not pure, yet are still passed off as such

Honestly, I wouldn't have any problem with hybrids if they were all sterile, like mules. Unfortunately, this is not the case. I also have no problems with people that may produce hybrids IF they hold on the the entire litter themselves, making sure that those snakes do not get out in to the population, where they c an potentially contaminate the genepool.

marisa · 01-21-04, 04:41 PM

All your responses have been a big help guys. I have found one sentence in this thread so far that has stood out by Mary/vanderkm:

"so if I am going to breed, I am going to work with what I like. I breed animals in order to share what I appreciate with others and to enhance the offspring, through selection, to be even more pleasing over time"

For me, kingsnakes are the top colubrid. I love them. I love the natural almost optical illusion a desert phase kingsnake has in the wild. When I think about breeding a king to a corn, the strong bands the babies might have stands out in my mind, probably because I love them so much. So I constantly seem to be veering towards the natural beauty of kings. Maybe that tells me where my feelings lay....with natural/localities/pure morphs. Still I am not sure on the issue, but the sentence really made me think about what I like and that's kings. Pure kings. I haven't seen a hybrid king I think looks better than what nature created so maybe for now that's what I will be sticking with.

Thanks for all the great thoughts so far. I am looking forward to more people sharing what made them feel one way or another.

Marisa

gonesnakee · 01-21-04, 04:45 PM

Mary V. responded with words, I'll respond with pics. Love them or hate them because I could really give a rats @ss what people think. I know what I like, to each their own. These are all F2 Jungles (parents were Jungles produced from CK to Corn breedings). Show me a Corn or a CK that even compares to these ones. IMHO Mark
P.S. For all you "purists" lets just all agree to disagree LOL!

<img src="http://members.shaw.ca/gonesnakee/AJC CD 1.JPG"width="600">

<img src="http://members.shaw.ca/gonesnakee/JC-M-2ND-1.JPG"width="600">

<img src="http://members.shaw.ca/gonesnakee/PRECIOUS 1.JPG"width="600">

>( >( >( >( >( >( >( >( >( >( >(

marisa · 01-21-04, 04:56 PM

Those are indeed beautiful snakes!

One thing that is nice too see, if you like hybrids or not, is the snakes in the photo would never ever be confused as pure by people who know their colubrids. It's reassuring I think even if you like hybrids.

Marisa

Katt · 01-21-04, 06:25 PM

Hybrids aren't the problem. It's the people.

gonesnakee · 01-21-04, 06:37 PM

Just so it is known I agree with some of the things Linds has to say. REMEMBER we are in the General Colubrid Forum talking about Jungle Corns, if we were in the General Python forum my thoughts would definitely be different. Oh BTW did I mention I'm going to breed my Womas to Blackheads next season or my Diamond to a BP. No seriously......... Yeeeaaah Right! LOL! Corns & Cal-Kings (& maybe other select kings, I haven't decided yet on this) is one thing, but Boids is a different topic for this boy anyhow. As far as any Hybrids go we are presenting opinions based mostly on morals. Its like discussing politics or religon blah blah blah we can go on forever, but I did hear somewhere that Catholic School Girls Rule though heh heh. : ) Mark
Edit: Katt's got my vote, people suck LOL

gonesnakee · 01-21-04, 07:05 PM

Something that I should also mention, but almost hate to DOH! Its been my limited experience with baby Jungle Corn/Kings (the way they should probably be labelled to avoid Newbie confusion) some of the Albinos don't do too well in the beginning. Don't get me wrong some feed like CKs (very aggressively) but I've had little Albino ones that never were quite right feeding & had them just up & die. The Albino gene of course is considered "weak" & I think it proves true especially with the genetic mixing of species involved as well. Heck the one pictured eating is still being assist fed. Mind you I had sold it fresh outta the egg unestablished to a fellow herper. Maybe if I had it all along it would have been better? I did get it back because of his lack of time BTW : )
Anyhow my question is do we bash (LOL) the people breeding Albinos & making hets? Something else we could debate forever or lets talk about line or inbreeding. Heh Heh Mark I.
Edit: I forgot to mention that I have produced Albino JC/K that are exactly like CKs in both looks & temperment, so yes I do agree some can be easily mistaken. Like everyone says though you must trust who you deal with.

Ontario_herper · 01-21-04, 07:32 PM

As Linds said.... if people kept these mutations/ hybrids and didn't breed them I wouldn't have a problem with it. If you get a kick out of having a triple-het-ghost-orange-threeleg-jungle corn than so be it! But don't screw it up for those of us that want a pure snake.

As with Linds example of the Indian python try finding a pure diamondpython 10 years from now. They'll all be 90% diamond cross something. Why? Because people are too cheap to buy a pair of real diamonds. To me this is not an ethical way of doing things.

I agree that people should keep what they want to keep. But when someone breeds hybrids or morphs it can ruin it for those that want to keep pure natural looking snakes.

Again, I just don't see a need for it and don't see how it benefits anyone other than the guy making money from them.