problem with hybrids?

[snakekid6996]

I haven't done much reaserch on the topic, but I know that some people are totally for hybrid snakes while others are completely against it. I myself see no problem with it as long as it doesn't effect the quality of the animals life. The snake itself wouldn't know the difference. So what is wrong with it?

[Mikoh4792]

I see nothing wrong with hybridizing as long as the animal is healthy and people keep track of lineage.

[snakekid6996]

I would think that keeping track of lineage wouldn't be a huge deal. If I'm correct (which I very well may not be) than hybrids can't reproduce.

[Mikoh4792]

Some can such as carpondros(carpet pythons x green tree pythons)

[snakekid6996]

Wow those are cool! Any idea how much they run?

[Mikoh4792]

Several hundred to a couple thousand if I remember correctly...maybe even several thousand.

[snakekid6996]

Well, there's another snake added to the list to get

[StudentoReptile]

Originally Posted by Mikoh4792

I see nothing wrong with hybridizing as long as the animal is healthy and people keep track of lineage.

The last part is where the controversy starts. The reality is many who practice making hybrids do not. Here's the problem:

The ORIGINAL BREEDER who put Snake A & Snake B together to make Hybrid C may keep his current records straight, and when he displays or sells Hybrid C, he may accurately label that animal. But does he REALLY know the background and genetics of Snake A or Snake B when he acquired them?

Example 1: carpet python x green tree python hybrid. What was the locality of the GTP? What was the subspecies or locality of the carpet? Breeders just often make the hybrid because it was cool.

Example 2: Boa c. constrictor x anaconda. Same situation....what subspecies of BCC?

...You get the picture. Half the time, many breeders don't even know what kind of boa they have, but they won't hesitate to create a hybrid just make an extra buck.

[franks]

Originally Posted by StudentoReptile

The last part is where the controversy starts. The reality is many who practice making hybrids do not. Here's the problem:

The ORIGINAL BREEDER who put Snake A & Snake B together to make Hybrid C may keep his current records straight, and when he displays or sells Hybrid C, he may accurately label that animal. But does he REALLY know the background and genetics of Snake A or Snake B when he acquired them?

Example 1: carpet python x green tree python hybrid. What was the locality of the GTP? What was the subspecies or locality of the carpet? Breeders just often make the hybrid because it was cool.

Example 2: Boa c. constrictor x anaconda. Same situation....what subspecies of BCC?

...You get the picture. Half the time, many breeders don't even know what kind of boa they have, but they won't hesitate to create a hybrid just make an extra buck.

Good point- not to mention the guy who picks up snake "c" off Craigslist and decides to breed him.

[aaron_cg]

Within responsible breeders, I see no issue. We had a kid on our local Facebook group that was talking about trying a ball python/Corn Snake hybrid. Don't know if he was serious or not, but, that's something that I would not support.

Stuff like the gtp mixed with carpets, and balls mixed with bloods, those are cool.

[snakekid6996]

Originally Posted by StudentoReptile

The last part is where the controversy starts. The reality is many who practice making hybrids do not. Here's the problem:

The ORIGINAL BREEDER who put Snake A & Snake B together to make Hybrid C may keep his current records straight, and when he displays or sells Hybrid C, he may accurately label that animal. But does he REALLY know the background and genetics of Snake A or Snake B when he acquired them?

Example 1: carpet python x green tree python hybrid. What was the locality of the GTP? What was the subspecies or locality of the carpet? Breeders just often make the hybrid because it was cool.

Example 2: Boa c. constrictor x anaconda. Same situation....what subspecies of BCC?

...You get the picture. Half the time, many breeders don't even know what kind of boa they have, but they won't hesitate to create a hybrid just make an extra buck.

I know that is a problem, but I'm not quite sure why. As long as the snake is taken care of why does it matter what background it is?

[aaron_cg]

That's part of tracking a snakes genealogy. For breeders, it's important to know those things.

As far as just someone whose looking for a pet, not nearly.

[StudentoReptile]

Originally Posted by aaron_cg

That's part of tracking a snakes genealogy. For breeders, it's important to know those things.

As far as just someone whose looking for a pet, not nearly.

Very true.
---
What many noobs and beginners fail to grasp, is that many species, such as carpets, BCC & BCI, GTPs, ATBs, ETBs and now even retics, many species of kingsnakes & ratsnakes, redfoot & yellow foot tortoises, etc [just to name a few] ...these snakes have very unique & specific subspecies and localities that are distinct from each other.

So for example, a "red-tailed boa" is not just a red-tailed boa anymore. It really was just a marketing label for pretty much any snake species under Boa constrictor, although several do not have red tails in adulthood. You have Columbian boa, Hog Island boas, Cay Caulker boas, Argentine boas, true Suriname red-tails & true Guyana red-tails, etc. So when you walk into a pet store or reptile show, and see "red-tailed boas" for sale, the ID tag is misleading because you really don't know where the snake came from and what locality or subspecies those snakes are, unless you are a BCC/BCI aficionado AND you know where the snakes were acquired from.

AND there are many hobbyists (much like coin and stamp collectors, and hobby train, plain or car collectors), who desire a particular locality or subspecies to add to their collection. That the snake is a "red-tailed boa" or a "carpet python" is not enough. They need to know details, and just like a purebred dog missing its bloodline papers, if they don't like what they find, its a no-sale.
---

So you see what this is already an issue with those particular species in those markets. NOW...when you add the element of hybrids in the mix, that presents an added pressure to maintain proper records of pure lineage of the parent animals. Imagine the frustration when someone just throws a "red-tailed boa" with a "amazon tree boa?" Well, was it a Cook's tree boa with a Hog Island Boa? I mean, what happens when you cross a mutt dog with another mutt dog = another mutt!!!!

There's plenty of "mutt" boas, carpet pythons, kingsnakes, etc floating around the hobby already, and now people want to make more hybrids...because its "neat." I agree, some hybrids do look appealing, but can we please address the mutt problem first before we create more hybrids?

[franks]

Originally Posted by StudentoReptile

Very true.
---
What many noobs and beginners fail to grasp, is that many species, such as carpets, BCC & BCI, GTPs, ATBs, ETBs and now even retics, many species of kingsnakes & ratsnakes, redfoot & yellow foot tortoises, etc [just to name a few] ...these snakes have very unique & specific subspecies and localities that are distinct from each other.

So for example, a "red-tailed boa" is not just a red-tailed boa anymore. It really was just a marketing label for pretty much any snake species under Boa constrictor, although several do not have red tails in adulthood. You have Columbian boa, Hog Island boas, Cay Caulker boas, Argentine boas, true Suriname red-tails & true Guyana red-tails, etc. So when you walk into a pet store or reptile show, and see "red-tailed boas" for sale, the ID tag is misleading because you really don't know where the snake came from and what locality or subspecies those snakes are, unless you are a BCC/BCI aficionado AND you know where the snakes were acquired from.

AND there are many hobbyists (much like coin and stamp collectors, and hobby train, plain or car collectors), who desire a particular locality or subspecies to add to their collection. That the snake is a "red-tailed boa" or a "carpet python" is not enough. They need to know details, and just like a purebred dog missing its bloodline papers, if they don't like what they find, its a no-sale.
---

So you see what this is already an issue with those particular species in those markets. NOW...when you add the element of hybrids in the mix, that presents an added pressure to maintain proper records of pure lineage of the parent animals. Imagine the frustration when someone just throws a "red-tailed boa" with a "amazon tree boa?" Well, was it a Cook's tree boa with a Hog Island Boa? I mean, what happens when you cross a mutt dog with another mutt dog = another mutt!!!!

There's plenty of "mutt" boas, carpet pythons, kingsnakes, etc floating around the hobby already, and now people want to make more hybrids...because its "neat." I agree, some hybrids do look appealing, but can we please address the mutt problem first before we create more hybrids?

Agree 100% I have no problem with crossing locals etc- but I really wish people didn't breed them. There is nothing "wrong" with it per Se but personally I like the locals kept pure. I like researching the environment my particular snake is from and trying to replicate it as much as possible. It's part of what makes the hobby so fun for me. I go a little overboard (having my mom bring back rocks from anze Borrego for my rosy boa of that locale) but I love it. Irian Jaya carpet pythons (my favorite) are a perfect example of this. We are not even talking hybrids here- just crossing localities. Many believe that the Irian Jaya makes the nicest Jaguar (I actually do not see a difference) but because of this there are 10 IJ'S for sale of mixed locality for every 1 pure one that I can find.

[Aaron_S]

Originally Posted by snakekid6996

I would think that keeping track of lineage wouldn't be a huge deal. If I'm correct (which I very well may not be) than hybrids can't reproduce.

1. Hybrid snakes can and do reproduce.

2. It is a big deal and many times in the past it's already been proven that the hobby can't police itself in this regard or really at all, but that's for a different thread.

In the past people were buying diamond carpet pythons (back then $1000+ each) and just breeding them to jungle carpets and selling them as "pure" diamonds because they look very similar to get that $1000+ price tag.

Now when breeder B breeds his "pure" diamonds they are no longer "pure" and it muddles up all future babies from this line.

Example 2, within boas there is the "central American" boa (Nics) who have a motley trait. It was originally sold as a "new morph" to this locality. The truth came out some years later that the originator just used the common "columbian" motley and bred it to the smaller Nic boa. The resulting babies looked different enough to claim them as "pure" Nic motleys.

So in reality, lineage is a huge deal and it only takes ONE person not willing to do it to ruin it for everyone in the future.

The last caveat is that unless it's plucked from the wild...most animals, especially locality boas and carpets I suspect, are muddled anyway.