Housing/husbandry for False Water Cobra? - Page 2

sassamagoo · 08-24-09, 08:21 AM

Jparker, you need to let it go. You've already decided you don't agree with Joel, no matter what he says. its been obvious on more than this post. Since that seems to be the case, just quit pushing it before you push him off the website. You know there may be other people who DO want to hear what he has to say without you jumping in every time to tell him why he's wrong.

If you can get Fry himself on here to give a different opinion, Awesome! Until then, please, quit starting arguments unless YOU YOURSELF know the answer PERSONALLY, from your own experience and research. Why ask questions just to disagree with every answer you get? Seems like pointless flaming to me.

Sass

Will0W783 · 08-24-09, 08:21 AM

I have no idea who Brian Fry is, and am not on anyone's side, I was just concerned about the possible mix-up between H. gigas and bicinctus and wanted to make sure that what I have is indeed H. gigas. I think you seem very knowledgeable and are a good member here.

siz · 08-24-09, 08:56 AM

Kim - From those pictures, and the other pictures I have seen I would say H.gigas. Those pics aren't the best for comparison but I have seen other pics of you FWC and the biggest thing that stands out to me is it's head.

Joel - I'm a little confused. I don't know a whole lot about venom, your post (#12) was a bit confusing to me...what is the measurement MW? And what are the differences between the 'Types' of venom you mentioned(and the ones you didn't)? I'm trying to wrap my head around it, it's super interesting stuff and I'd love to learn about it.

jparker - Obviously you disagree with Joel but I would like to respectfully ask you to stop being so attacking. He seems to have the knowledge to back up what he says (in detail) while you are taking words from someone else's mouth and have no way to back it up. The statement "venom + microscope = fail" is extremely vague and I'm not sure if you are trying to start a fight or not. Can you tell us why it "= fail"? Genuinely curious...

Will0W783 · 08-24-09, 10:07 AM

I agree with Siz here. I am enjoying Joel's contributions, and dont' want to see him get annoyed and leave the site. Not everyone will agree with everyone else, especially with a sometimes touchy topic (I guess rear-fanged potencies can be touchy?) but there is no reason to constantly attack another member.

jparker1167 · 08-24-09, 12:32 PM

it was not a post that i talked to him on. it was on facebook. grow up lol thats coming from you? the person who tells people they are not able to keep a puff adder because they do not have more then 6 years experience handling hots but you have taken almost 2 bites a year for 17 years and another one bite a year for the next 30 or so years. you try to help kids learn maybe you should step back and look at your hanlding before you tell others how to do so. lol grass snakes huh whats wrong with those even tho i dont keep those. i keep venomous cobras gaboons puffs saw scales leventine vipers and have kept hots for around 5 years with no bites. how soon did you get bit when you started ? im pretty sure i would not want to learn from you. i have a friend that i talk to about hots and hes 50 years old and has kept hots for over 30 years and has taken 4 bites. had he had 200 adult venomous breeders. 100 where cobras. he also started keeping hots when he was 14 and started with puff adders. he didnt take a bite from a hot for 28 years after he started.

so you think fry's fame has gone to his head lol i guess you have never talked to him have you? he goes in king snake chat room now and i have never got the feeling that he though he was to good to talk to anyone. he has people answer for him lol where the hell did you get that maybe you should not comment on stuff you dont know about.

jparker1167 · 08-24-09, 02:20 PM

i have nothing against joel, but when he said the venom of the false water cobra was comparable to cobras mambas and kraits it didnt sound like anything i have heard about them. most people talk about them comparable to rattlers. not elapids. willow fry is a venom researcher.

Will0W783 · 08-24-09, 07:57 PM

Cool! I imagine venom researching must be really interesting. I don't really know that much about venom or its compositions, although I have a few snake books that go into the basics of it fairly well and I understand biochemistry, so hopefully I'll learn more about it. I'm just trying to understand the venom and the potency therein of my FWC a bit better. I got him because I thought he was a fascinating little snake ( I know he will get big and am prepared for it) and from what I read he wasn't fatal. I do hope I don't ever have to find out personally. He is quite docile now, and I handle him like I do my pythons and boas, albeit a bit more cautiously and gently. Jparker, thanks for all the help and advice on my Spilotes too! I really appreciate it. I moved him into a bigger enclosure now- he is in a 5'x2'x16" melamine and plexiglas enclosure. He does the coolest tail drumming whenever I open the cage or stand in front of it...lol..it's like he thinks he's a rattler or something. You need to post some pictures of your Spilotes-I'm dying to see it. I think they are one of my new favorite species. Cyclone is just such an awesome snake!

jparker1167 · 08-24-09, 09:17 PM

no problem man im glad hes doing well. no one has ever died from a false water cobra bite that i have heard of. they have a poor delivery, i would not let them chew on you tho lol. everyone reacts differently to venom any bite could become a problem.

siz · 08-25-09, 07:36 AM

Have you guys seen the photos of the man who let his hognose chew on this hand? His hand is incredibly swollen and ... gross, pussing, etc. It was really bad. How can you be so stupid?? I can try and find the link if anyone is interested.

Will0W783 · 08-25-09, 07:38 AM

I would like to see that, just to see the extent of the damage- seriously wtf? He must be ******** to let any snake, let alone a (mildly) venomous one, chew on him. Dumbass.

siz · 08-25-09, 07:47 AM

hognose snake bite
Not quite as bad as I remember it being. But this guy is a moron. Read the text, it says he let it chew on him for 3-5 MINUTES.

Will0W783 · 08-25-09, 08:11 AM

Total idiot! I would have immediately have gotten it under running water or pushed my hand back into its jaw to gag it and cause it to release. I have been bitten a few times by pythons and boas, but always it was a quick bite/release. I would NEVER EVER let a snake chew on me...seriously bad idea.

siz · 08-25-09, 08:15 AM

Especially a venomous one..

jparker1167 · 08-25-09, 08:25 AM

i saw that pic before too, complete moron. i saw a artical about a guy that let a false water cobra chew on him also i believe they said he blacked out ill try to find the post.

Joel La Rocque · 08-25-09, 09:20 AM

I answered the questions and hit send prior to reading what I wrote. I hit the stop tab and lost everything so here is the short version.
Please remember that I am at the BOTTOM of the venom chain just barely above the snake. I gather the venom and send it off to different Labs to be processed into what ever they are manufacturing. At times we get the venom sent back with the sticker "unusable" placed on it. I usually know what the problem was but I call anyway. Here is the lines that I usually get.
The venom did not have the proper number of sought after proteins on a milligram per milligram basis. For example lets say the manufacturer was designing an anti venom for all North American species of pit vipers. Like Crofab They need the venom from four species of snakes. The Eastern and Western diamondbacks are two, the Mojave rattlesnake is number three and the Southern Cottonmouth is number four. Even though I send them the venom's requested they must have the proper proteins by mass weight for the venom's to work. The Mojave Rattlers venom must be Type-A venom possessing high fractions of the acidic sub-unit. This protein has a molecular weight (MW) of about 2.500 Dalton's as well as the basic Phospholipase (PLA-2) toxin found in almost all pit vipers to be acceptable. Both combined make a potent neurotoxin with a MW of 38.000 Dalton's. One of the larger components of the FWC secretions is a neurotoxin with a MW of 38.000Dalton's. I see this on paper and I know they are talking about a "Neurotoxin" This is usually found in Elapids, Rear fanged Colubrids and a few vipers when in a state of Flux, which I believe the Mojave rattlesnake to be in at this time. For the two types of toxins to bind they must have a binding agent ie. Disulphide bridge or bond. A disulphide bond is a strong covalent bond capable of linking polypeptide chains in proteins together via an oxidation of the sulfhydryl groups of two molecules of Cysteine. In short, after being told this over and over again, I merely have to see the numbers of the components and the types found in the venom to know it is a neurotoxin. Nothing genius about it, just repetition and remembering the base element weights. All snake venom's have a certain number of neurotoxins, amino acids, proteins, Phospholipases A2's within their construction. In fact the acidic toxins found in the Mojave rattlesnake alone would not cause any ill effects on a human body alone. But when added to the Tissue destructive proteins also found in the venom they make the most potent neurotoxin to be found in any North American snake alive today. I saw the numbers and knew it was a neurotoxin. The proteins are extremely small fractions and are weighed in the unit of measure called "Dalton's" 1 gram (about the weight of an M&M plane) is equal to 6.022.173.643 plus 23 Dalton's or a million million billion Dalton's give or take a few. You will get a different weight if you use different methods of separating the protein such as by "Gel Filtration" or by "Ultracentrifugation" to name but two methods.
The bottom line is that I simply have picked up information over the years that has little to do with my work with snakes. I send off small samples of venom to be assayed and if the numbers are within the tolerance levels, Great! The sad part is that I like to give the right information when asked and at times it will not be viewed as correct by others. You are the one who must take the different answers and research them both and then decide which one to subscribe to. There is no such thing as a Genius or Expert when it comes to snakes or Toxins. Both fields are in their infancy and new components are being discovered every day making yesterdays fact a misnomer and now useless. Learn for yourself and if it sounds a bit off to you, it probably is. Who you believe is irrelevant, it is what you believe that will either make or break you. I believe no one, I look for myself and then decide.
I hope this straightened out the mystery of the FWC venom case. I still am animate about never letting any snake chew on your finger. I have a good story about that happening a few years ago but I will save that for another time.

Thanks Joel