Thoughts on Jungle Corns

[Ontario_herper]

Gonesnakee- In Linds example I don't see how it matters whether it's a python or a corn? Is her reasoning and point behind the example still not valid?

[gonesnakee]

Whatever LOL! Not only are you bashing Hybrids but morphs now as well. We'd all just love a perfect world where everything went exactly the way we want it, but get a grip man! I say give the people what they want. So you think its OK to make money off snakes only as long as they are a pure naturally appearing morph & thats it? I won't even touch that one other than to say reread above posts LOL. I'll say it AGAIN we are not talking about Pythons here we are talking about Corns & Kings so provide some relevant examples or choose another forum LOL. Furthermore if you choose to deal with people who misrepresent their animals that is your choice. Them ones are probably the cheaper ones eh LOL! Breeding stock should be bought directly from decent breeders, NUFF SAID! Mark
P.S. Lets try to be open minded here eh!
Edit for O.H. like I tried to state before this is a no win either way subject & I'm not into going round in circles that have already been in many other threads before. I'm just trying to present some facts relevant to the orginal topic of Jungle Corn/Kings & this is the Colubrid forum. As you can see I posted valid points for both sides myself even though I have my own opinions. The Diamond example don't cut it. I'm not talking about rare species (both in the wild & in captivity ie: Diamomd) I'm talking the most common ones in the whole herping world (Corns & Kings) This just happens to be a subject where we all get pushing one anothers buttons & I'd just as soon discuss religon or politics NOT! Cheers man & stick to your guns, we all have to LOL Mark >(

[Ontario_herper]

Indeed, I am bashing both hybrids and morphs!

Give who what they want? What do you mean by this comment?

I'm not big into making money from snakes. I won't say that it's wrong but I'd much rather trade and leave money out of it. But that's just a personal thing.

Okay we'll leave the pythons out of it! So you decide to breed a number of those Jungle corns. Life is good and you're producing dozens of these snakes.

Now you have too many and you decide to sell a group of them. Joe blow from the other side of town buys them and decides two years later that he doesn't like them anymore.

Now by this point the market is completely flooded. These snakes are now no longer "cool" and they're not worth a cent. So this guy decides to release his snakes because he's a total idiot. Now you have hybrid snakes running around breeding with wild normal snakes.

Besides all that......... you may buy your hybrids from a reputable breeder and you may be reputable yourself. But what about another guy who buys them and turns around and sells them as something else. In case you didn't know not everyone is ethical. Just because you are doesn't mean bad things can't happen.

Who's not being open minded? Just because I don't agree with something that I believe to be wrong doesn't make me not open minded.

[marisa]

Again the point of this thread was to share your personal reasons for disliking or liking hybrids and what made you decide to breed them or not breed them, not argue someone else's point of view. One thing I think we can all agree on, its ALL been said and read before by probably all of us. If all I wanted was pro views on one side or the other, I would have just stated that. I wanted to see people who are both for and against hybrids sharing personal reasons why.

Marisa

[gonesnakee]

Hi David (you too Marisa lol) I agree with everything you just said other than it is "wrong" (I still "agree" to disagree lol). Though the likelyhood of your example is almost non-existent. Better chance of falling off the edge of the world IMHO. Lets say that it did happen. Whats the chance of those hybrids surviving in the wild, very slim (up here none, lol). So slim infact that they would not affect the genepool at all. Remember that they all came from the wild to begin with (morphs) & you don't see them running rampant out there now do you? Anyhow, basic point being yes people are idiots (I wish I choose Katt's route of reply, much easier lol). I can't be held responsible for every idiot in the world & I don't expect anyone else to be either. No matter what we choose to do in life there will always be ethics & they will always differ from someone elses. I'm talking every single thing you can think of not just snakes. Example: I shouldn't be allowed to have a gun because someone else might shoot someone or something with it? I can list 1000's more. We can flog a dead horse forever & it won't change it. Their will always be idiots no matter what your talking & if you want to let them control what you do in life so be it, me I'll go my own way. Like I said before I like em, each their own. Mark

[vanderkm]

Originally posted by Ontario_herper
Simply put hybrids are bad. Can anyone give me an exapmle of how producing hybrids benefits snakes in any way shape or form (no pun intended)?

I find this a very interesting question and one that made me think for a while this afternoon. My response may not please people, but quite frankly, I do not breed snakes to benefit snakes - I breed them for the same reason that I keep them - to benefit myself. This benefit is not monetary - I lose a lot of money having reptiles (ask my husband!) but I keep and breed them for my own good, not for their good. I exploit them for my own learning and curiosity and I breed them to play with genetics and perfect husbandry because that is fun for me. Selfish - yes - but much human behaviour is selfish. I do provide them with optimal, minimal stress conditions for the duration of their lives and I take responsibility for ensuring that when offspring are sold they have complete information included with them. So I don't feel that I have to justify my decisions about breeding morphs or hybrids based on what is good for the species. That never entered into my decision making.

While I don't breed or keep snakes to benefit the snakes - I do things on a global scale that will benefit herps and wildlife as a whole. These are things like giving money to preserve habitat, participating in public education to increase awareness of the value of wild reptile populations and environment, and supporting a local herp club in both public education and rescue of unwanted herps.

Marisa - I actually found it interesting that you started this thread because every post you make about your kingsnakes and every photo you share of them reflects how strongly you feel about them. It doesn't come as a suprise to me that you would prefer pure kings - and that for you nothing can improve on them. The best advice I have ever taken off a forum with regard to keeping herps was to keep and breed what you love to work with (thanks to Corey Woods!) and I believe it is very true. Go with that!


mary v.

[Ontario_herper]

gonesnakee- True a corn x king would have little impact (unless it carried disease) in Calgary, or here in Ontario but in the US (in areas they are naturally found) it could have more of an impact. Especially as these hybrids are produced in larger numbers the chance of them becomes increased. It is true that some of the morph's come from wild snakes but as far as I know corns and kings do not naturally hybridize.

I guess I see it from the point of view that there are so many amazing snakes out there.... including many that we know little about captive husbandry. Why take snakes that would not naturally reproduce and do just that? To me it just doesn't make sense. From what you guys have told me it is done because you like the look of the hybrids and you like to see what sorts of suprises you can get? Again I don't feel that this is a good enough reason to breed these types of snakes. As I've seen so far no one has given me a way that producing hybrids benefits snakes at all. So why not just satisfy your curiosity via another route.

Obviously we feel different about these snakes. That much is clear. I'm just trying to understand the draw to producing hybrids.

[Katt]

I'm going to come across really strongly so I get my point across.

You people "debating" hybrids, are WASTING YOUR TIME. Hybrids are out there, out there before Mark and I even popped out of our momma's bellies. There's nothing you can do, unless you want to DNA test, every single snake. To test it's "purity".

Ethics? Please, read the paper, it doesn't exist for most people.

The snakes aren't the problem, IT'S THE PEOPLE!

You're not going to stop the "problem" as you see it by "debating" it. Sure sure, you might stop a couple newbies who don't know any better, but the fact is, there are unscrupulous people producing, who knows what, with who knows what, passing it off as you know what.

As ALWAYS buyer beware. Buy from people who you trust, b/c chances are, they buy from people they trust, who can trace the lineage of the snakes they have bred.

As for why people produce hybrids, well, like most things we do, b/c we can. B/c the snakes can. Isn't a species definined by a discrete group which can only breed among themselves? Why does this not exist within snakes? Why can GENUS cross quite easily, back and forth with no problem? Hybrids, demand we reevaluate our idea of what a species is. There's a certain mystique about a creature, that exists, when it shouldn't. It should just be a dead in the egg, but there it is, ALIVE, EATING, and even BREEDING.

Selective breeding produces animals, that fit our "ideal". Hybrids are just an extension. As snakes move towards domestication, what we do with them will be quite similar to what has been done to the domestic rat, mouse, cat, dog, livestock. An animal which suits us, and our selfish needs.

Anyway, I ranted. I don't want to come across that I don't appreciate wild species, wild animals, or anything. In fact I absolutely love seeing wild snakes. That is one of the reasons we moved here, to see wild garters, wild bulls, and wild rattlers. To know that they exist, live and free, WITHOUT any our help. Those snakes are pure. Not the ones we keep in our homes.

[Scales Zoo]

Well, there are so many good points to each side of the argument, which will remain eternal.

While I personally think that anyone who crosses a jungle python with a diamond python should be shot, I am biased because I have a pair of diamond pythons.

I do not breed corns or kings, I used to, and my favorites since I was a kid were the jungle corns and the gopher corns.

If they are priced higher, hopefully people who are getting them will know for sure what they are getting.

When it comes to corn - king crossing's, I don't think any new people who are doing it can be blamed.

Look at the one picture of Marks corn. In the U.S - that would be a $1000+ snake. He kept it, and I bet he is going to breed it to a variety of cool snakes to keep the frankenstein thing going. You know what, so would I, I bet, if my breeding efforts would have gone that way.

It is such a cool looking snake that can't be found in the wild anywhere, I can see how waiting for the eggs that were produced by that snake would be exciting.

And I might keep all of the babies for myself, or sell them at a high price - which they would sell for. You have to admit, it would be exciting.

Ryan

[Scales Zoo]

Unfortunately, I didn't get to read Katt's post before I posted mine.

Ryan

[Katt]

I just wanted to make an edit.

Crossing very rare animals is completely wrong in my opinion. A well as rare localities (Hogg Isles, etc), b/c those rare animals ARE in serious danger of extinction. Whilst common colubrids are not.

[Linds]

Originally posted by gonesnakee
REMEMBER we are in the General Colubrid Forum talking about Jungle Corns, if we were in the General Python forum my thoughts would definitely be different.

Your opinion may be different depending on the animal in question, but my opinion remains the same, regardless. Whether this was in the Amphibian forum, Python forum, or Colubrid forum, you would've gotten the identical response. Often I use red wolves as an example when arguing hybrids, just because they are not a reptile does not mean it is incapable of illustrating my point all the same. Boids are my main focus, so I chose to use an example of what I know best. It still illustrates the exact same point. So while it may not make sense for you to post something like I did in this forum, is not to mean it doesn't make sense for me to

[Ontario_herper]

So only rare animals should be exempt from being crossed? So then you are saying that it is wrong? Rare or not is shouldn't matter. All snakes are of value and one day most snakes will be rare.

I guess I should go out and poach every animal I see fit until it becomes rare and then stop. Is this not the same as what you are saying Katt? Exploit the animals until they become rare and then give a crap about them? That is just obserd!

[C.m.pyrrhus]

As folks can tell, the ideals of hybrids, intergrades and morphs are far between. This is my view as simple as I can put it.

In my opinion, I do not see anything overly wrong with the breeding of snakes either way. It seriously comes down to the people whom do the breeding and selling. That to me is the important factor in it all.

Now by this point the market is completely flooded. These snakes are now no longer "cool" and they're not worth a cent. So this guy decides to release his snakes because he's a total idiot. Now you have hybrid snakes running around breeding with wild normal snakes.

This is a silly arguement. Ideally any snake that becomes "lost" to the wild will be able to impact in a negative way equally, not only hybrids. To say that this is even something that could seriouly damage an ecosystem over any other is rediculous.

Anyone who says that it is an unatural method and immoral may be right in some aspect, but to be honest there would not be many morphs it was not for the genes in a natural environment in the first place. Even here in AZ, several species intergrade and hybridize. I see it quite often as well. I have seen many WDB x Mojave, WDB x Blacktail....intergrades of Coachwips and Gophersnakes, Garters. There are Kings that intergrade. By simple genitics, we could possably have even garter x King hybrids. Some other species including lizards aslo, and all done by naturally occuring and influenced methods, not by man. This is only one state in one country. Does this make God just as evil as man?

Also, there is the roll of snakes as a pet in the animal trade as well. I do not see anything immoral here. This is far from any "conservation of species" motivation linked in here. Hybrids put animals in the trade that otherwise would not occur. They are there simply as pets, as an interesting animal that folks desire to keep. I do not see how this can be frowned upon myself. Neither can one say that becuase they have a Cali King, that it even closely resembles any native snake in the wild. Who is to say that their animals are "naturally occuring" even if it is 'pure', that is unless you caught it yourself. In my eyes, a Cali King from California mated with another from Arizona is not "pure" by any means. It is still not a hybrid, it is still the same species as both parents, but also not what it was entended by its maker either. (Thus another example of why hybrids are looked upon as bad, evil and immoral) To me this is equally as prolific in terms of morality as hybrids are.

So, as I see it, the arguement of hybrids and the like are pretty silly. The pet trade should by no means reflect any conservational ideals. They are seperate in both methods, reasoning and understanding. If anyone must push the moral ethics of breeding, they should look into every aspect of herpoteculture, not only the obvious hybrids, morphs and intergrades. As the fact remains that nearly 100% of the animals in the pet trade are nothing to be compared to in respect of naturally occuring species. These obvious animals stick out more, that is all, but should not be looked at seperately.

Why take snakes that would not naturally reproduce and do just that? To me it just doesn't make sense. .

P.S.- To me there is a natural reason these snakes can create offspring. Whether or not that they may or may not exsist naturally, does not mean that they would not down the line. Neither does that mean that other ways can create these creations other than breeding them. A corn could hitch a ride on a train and end up in another state and do the same thing ( this has been documented in other species with more impact than simple breeding by herpers) that breeders do. To say that breeders in a market cannot do this, but overlooking other negatively impacting ways makes for a pointless arguement.

[gonesnakee]

Round & round we go, some good points by all. Cheers for Linds sticking by her purist attitude & yes I can relate. I do hold almost the same views, but there are exceptions to every rule it seems in my case. I don't do nothing across the board LOL. Call me a hypocrit, but I got me some cool snakes & don't worry Dave I definitely won't be letting them go (well maybe if the price is right heh heh) LOL Mark
P.S. Right on Mary & Go Hybrids Go! (Not applicable in all cases LOL)
P.P.S. Ryans totally right about being excited to see, as you never know what may slither out. Literally every single snake of the clutch can be unique in its own way. Some way moreso than others : )