Adult snakes and heat pads?

[dross9615]

I had recently read in another post that heat pads are bad for adult snake. If this is true. Why are they bad?

[dannybgoode]

Thermal blocking. Put something heavy on a heat mat and it gets very hot in a very localised way eg under whatever is on it.

As an experiment put a book on a heat mat for and hour, away from the thermostat and see how much hotter the mat is where the book was, regardless of what the stat is set to. Can harm the snake with it getting too hot.

Further the generally only provide heat to what is touching them so with a snake with a large muscle mass only the bottom outer third gets heated (usually too much - see above) and the rest of the snake stays too cold

Can cause digestive issues and regurge.

Finally they don't really raise the ambient temperature of the whole air volume. Only that near the bottom of the viv.

CHE's and RHP's do a much better job of mimicking how the sun heats things.

[trailblazer295]

Hmmm very interesting. What would be considered "to large" for a UTH and use am RHP instead?

[dross9615]

Hmm very interesting. That absolutely makes since thougj. I'm switching to rhp once I build my enclosure anyway but it is always nice to have the information and be able to educate others

[bigsnakegirl785]

Exactly why I only use flex watt in my juvenile set ups, and why I'm so anxious to get my overhead set ups together. On top of the fact it's way more difficult to control heat with belly heat than overhead heat, and flex watt is going to have a way harder time combating any cold drafts that may come through the enclosure.

I've seen others claim that belly heat is more natural, but when a snake basks they're getting heat from all sides (but especially from up top and below), not just their belly. Also, the surface where the snake is sitting will become cooler rather than the constant heat output that belly heat sources put out. So, if you want a natural heat source, RHPs/CHEs are the way to go. They heat the floor way better than most people think, otherwise the method I use for maintaining humidity wouldn't work. I pour water directly into the bedding, mix it up, and as the bedding becomes warm it releases the moisture it's holding into the air.

[EL Ziggy]

I've never heard of any problems with uth's until recently when DBG broached the topic. I can see where it makes some sense but I'd like to see some some cited scientific proof of thermal blocking being an issue with snakes and their enclosures. I've used UTH's on all of my enclosures for the past 3 years without issues. My larger bull snakes have never had any burns or regurges in either their tubs, glass tanks, or pvc enclosures. I've seen no evidence of digestive issues either. I do plan on switching to RHP's just because they'll boost my ambient temps and my carpets tend to spend a lot of time perching. I've been using IR heat bulbs to boost my ambient temps but I think they're lowering my humidity more than I'd like.

[bigsnakegirl785]

Originally Posted by EL-Ziggy

I've never heard of any problems with uth's until recently when DBG broached the topic. I can see where it makes some sense but I'd like to see some some cited scientific proof of thermal blocking being an issue with snakes and their enclosures. I've used UTH's on all of my enclosure for the past 3 years without issues. My larger bull snakes have never had any burns or regurges in either their tubs, glass tanks, or pvc enclosures. I've seen no evidence of digestive issues either. I do plan on switching to RHP's just because they'll boost my ambient temps and my carpets tend to spend a lot of time perching. I've been using IR heat bulbs to boost my ambient temps but I think they're lowering my humidity more than I'd like.

Well this is a well-known issue with human heating pads, this exact same thing is why you're advised not to sleep on a heating pad. Because doing so causes heat to build up and you can burn yourself. With reptile heating pads, it may not burn them because you have them on a thermostat, but heat will still build up to some degree in the animal.

Warnings of such kind are also disclosed with heated floors, for the same reasons stated earlier in the thread, except it's not affecting an animal but the floor itself.

I don't have any insights on flexwatt vs belly heat as all my snakes have either had ambient heat all their life, or belly heat all their life. Once they're all switched to overhead heat I can comment on the individual differences I've noticed. That said, my BRB always has random red patches on his belly where his belly has been directly touching the heat pad. Setting his temperatures super low solves this issue, but I'm afraid he isn't warm enough with how cold wet moss gets so I leave the temps where they're at.

[treaux]

I'd like to see some actual evidence to this. I know tons of people who use heat tape and have been caring for and breeding snakes small and large for many years. It's true that heat tape/pads won't raise ambient temps, so that does need to be addressed, but I don't see heat tape as being a problem.

Most snakes don't "bask" in the sun, as it's a very exposed area. Most of the ground dwelling snakes get their warmth from the earth, especially at night after the ground is the only thing left warm from the sun during the day. This would mean they are accustomed to getting warmth through their belly when the ambient temp is much cooler. Heat also will dissipate into the snake even if it's only being applied on one side. For my snakes in a rack that only have belly heat, when I pick them up off it, their entire body is warm and around the same temp as the tape.

As for thermal blocking, I don't know much about it, but I have noticed that effect. It seems to only happen when something is placed directly on the heat mat. Most people I know use the heat tape to heat the bottom surface of the enclosure, which then heats the snake. This leads to more even temps and hotspots.

That said, I do find RHPs more effective at heating the surfaces the snakes sit on and prefer them over heat tape when it is convenient. Unfortunately this doesn't really work in a rack environment as of yet.

[EL Ziggy]

I understand the concept of thermal blocking but uth's and heat tape are probably the most commonly used heat sources in the hobby. With so much research on reptile husbandry it seems as though there would be some literature or studies either disputing or proving their ineffectiveness similar to what's been shown with heat rocks. If CHE's or RHP's are the only safe and reliable heat sources how are so many snakes kept in racks, tubs and other enclosures without documented issues? I'm all for providing the best environment for my animals and if it's proven that belly heat is bad for snakes I'll gladly make a change.

[bigsnakegirl785]

Originally Posted by treaux

I'd like to see some actual evidence to this. I know tons of people who use heat tape and have been caring for and breeding snakes small and large for many years. It's true that heat tape/pads won't raise ambient temps, so that does need to be addressed, but I don't see heat tape as being a problem.

Most snakes don't "bask" in the sun, as it's a very exposed area. Most of the ground dwelling snakes get their warmth from the earth, especially at night after the ground is the only thing left warm from the sun during the day. This would mean they are accustomed to getting warmth through their belly when the ambient temp is much cooler. Heat also will dissipate into the snake even if it's only being applied on one side. For my snakes in a rack that only have belly heat, when I pick them up off it, their entire body is warm and around the same temp as the tape.

As for thermal blocking, I don't know much about it, but I have noticed that effect. It seems to only happen when something is placed directly on the heat mat. Most people I know use the heat tape to heat the bottom surface of the enclosure, which then heats the snake. This leads to more even temps and hotspots.

That said, I do find RHPs more effective at heating the surfaces the snakes sit on and prefer them over heat tape when it is convenient. Unfortunately this doesn't really work in a rack environment as of yet.

Actually, many snakes do bask in the open, especially diurnal snakes. They do also make use of warm surfaces during the night as you mentioned, though. But basking in the direct sunlight is actually quite common, you can see rattlesnakes and garter snakes especially doing this.

Here's a link saying that using snakes' natural basking behaviors is a useful tool in observing them in the wild: Snakes - Living with Wildlife | Washington Department of Fish & Wildlife

It again mentions them basking on roads since it's warm after nightfall.

Here's a link that mentions boa constrictors basking in the sun in trees: Boa Constrictor

Another one mentioning carpet pythons basking in the open: https://www.australiazoo.com.au/our-...carpet-pythons

For snakes, basking in the sunlight is an invaluable way to get warm, even if it opens them to predation.

[treaux]

Originally Posted by bigsnakegirl785

Actually, many snakes do bask in the open, especially diurnal snakes. They do also make use of warm surfaces during the night as you mentioned, though. But basking in the direct sunlight is actually quite common, you can see rattlesnakes and garter snakes especially doing this.

Here's a link saying that using snakes' natural basking behaviors is a useful tool in observing them in the wild: Snakes - Living with Wildlife | Washington Department of Fish & Wildlife

It again mentions them basking on roads since it's warm after nightfall.

Here's a link that mentions boa constrictors basking in the sun in trees: Boa Constrictor

Another one mentioning carpet pythons basking in the open: https://www.australiazoo.com.au/our-...carpet-pythons

For snakes, basking in the sunlight is an invaluable way to get warm, even if it opens them to predation.

That may be true, but conduction is their most efficient way to gain heat (and probably accounts for more of it than radiation from the sun). Sitting on hot pavement either in the sun or after dark, most of the heat is coming from the pavement which has more heat stored in it than the snake itself. Same goes for basking on rocks or anything else that holds heat. My point being this is very similar to a heat pad and snakes are definitely built to make use of it.

[bigsnakegirl785]

Originally Posted by treaux

That may be true, but conduction is their most efficient way to gain heat (and probably accounts for more of it than radiation from the sun). Sitting on hot pavement either in the sun or after dark, most of the heat is coming from the pavement which has more heat stored in it than the snake itself. Same goes for basking on rocks or anything else that holds heat. My point being this is very similar to a heat pad and snakes are definitely built to make use of it.

I'm sure they get just as much heat from the sun's rays as they do from the surface, after all any dark pigmentation will absorb more of the sun's heat than light pigmentation. At night, yeah I can agree the majority of the heat is coming from the surface they're sitting on, although there is still going to be a lot heat radiating off of the surface into the surrounding air. During the day, they aren't getting heat from just one direction, and a snake sitting on a rock or whatever will absorb heat from what they're sitting on and cool the area they're sitting on as a result. Heat pads only give off heat in one specific area without giving any ambient heat, and they do not cool off however long the snake sits on it, instead it just gets warmer. If you walk over a hot rock ledge on a hot sunny day, you're not just going to feel heat where your feet touches the rock itself, you'll feel the heat all around you, even as a person whose head is 5'-6' off the surface. On a cool, mostly overcast day, it probably won't be as hot, but you'll still feel heat radiating off of the rock at short distances.

I don't think the usage of heat pads is a dire issue where using them could mean a sick or dead snake, but I do believe they aren't a natural way of heating, and that there's benefits to using RHPs/CHEs where possible. Especially considering many people who use belly heat heat the entire room to a certain temperature to maintain acceptable minimum temperatures for their animals. So they still get ambient temperatures to a certain degree.

I think the the belly heat vs. ambient issue is more one of enrichment and preference.

[chairman]

It sounds like thermal blocking is a problem associated with direct contact with heat pads. Don't most of us have a piece of glass or plastic between our snakes and our UTHs? And airflow below the UTH to prevent overheating?

I do use a heat pad in direct contact with one of my herps: a ~40 pound sulcata. Maybe it is just because thermostat controlled pig blankets are engineered for direct contact, but I read the surface temp of the pad below my tortoise on occasion and the temps don't deviate from the normal fluctuations inherent in heat pads.

[kala83]

this is only speaking from my perosnal experince with them....and it was a one time deal. But it was enough for me to not really like the things or trust them that much anymore.

basically almost a year ago possibly less lol sorry this last year has seriously been incredibly long and hard on me in a lot of ways so my internal time line is kind of off.

I picked up a young adult ball python that I named Loki, I had heard a lot of people suggest to me that giving him a heating pad was a good idea for him.
I started noticing that his scales had gotten a pink shade to them and I had a friend of mine come over that had owned snakes all his life (so he claimed) and asked about why he had not been eating even after a few weeks of aclimating to the new space.
as well as to the pink-ness of his scales.....the guy told me it was a normal thing.

UMM NOOO NOO NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! it was the beginning of a thermal burn that he had gotten from the heat pad. If I had known what that was then, and stopped using the thing and just gotten him a heat lamp instead of might have saved his life. But no I listened to the advise of others, and then the burn got worse...i did not know what it really was until I took him into the veterinarian and by that time it was already to far gone.

the poor lil guy ended up not being able to eat due to the injury for three months, and EVERYONE I spoke to told me not to force feed him...even though he had no food in his body and I thought he might need that if anything to help him out with the burn. I had gotten him some topical cream that actually had been starting to work and help him out. He had just gone to long at that point with out food.

that’s why for myself and any snakes I keep I am going to used lamps rather the pads....just don't really trust them

[MDT]

so would you define "bad for the animal" as growth of animal, vigorous feeding, pooping like there is no tomorrow, constant thermostat readings, and both vertical and horizontal thermal gradients that are consistent with the use of heat tape? just asking, because i'm using heat tape and i guess i'm doing wrong.