Snakes ARE affectionate

[SSSSnakes]

Originally Posted by SnoopySnake

Sigh, another one of these threads....

Have to give the new Mods something to do, it's been boring around here lately. LOL

[RAD House]

Eminart corvids are generally accepted as the most intelligent bird group, but raptors are no dunces. Harris's Hawks are known to hunt in coordinated groups. Egyptian vultures use twigs to rake up wool for their nests. I am curious what you base your allocation of intelligence off of?
Ugghh another one of those comments. If you don't find this interesting why comment at all. I feel as passionate as the participants seem to be, it has been kept fairly civil. Why discourage friendly discourse?

[Nuxodom]

btw, I've had hundreds (ok..well..over 150) of snakes since 1976....my "n" is greater than your "n"....[/QUOTE]

I've had snakes for 40 years, since 1975. Well over 300 snakes. I knew Bill Haast personally (you may have heard of the Miami Serpentarium where he supplied snake venom for medical use, and has been bitten by poisonous snakes nearly 200 times). How big is your "n"? :-)

Now, as far as the topic about snakes and affection (for everyone else).

I've had snakes that showed fear, content, rage, happiness and - yes - affection. They certainly have emotions. I see affection daily from them, if you know what you are looking for. It's not a "human affection" or "love," they have their own ways.

I've seen countless studies on this; some say they are not capable of "affection," others say they most certainly are. Take your pick, but I go with what I have experienced in four decades of snake handling. It's not disputable what I have seen and do see.

It's quite clear - at least in my snakes - what they like and dislike. This is emotion. They are comfortable with some people and not so much with others too.

All my snakes have had unique personalities...no two are exactly the same. This includes showing "affection." Some may say they seek heat, hence it seems like affection. While this is true, I've certainly handled snakes in hot weather, where heat was not exactly desired. Yet, they still acted the same as they did in a cold house.

Some of my snakes seek me out on my bed nearly every time, to fall asleep by me, even when my wife is on the bed too.

I think it's all down to opinion, and arguing the point is moot. I'm quite sure my snakes show affection along with other emotions; that's my opinion.

[mistersprinkles]

Originally Posted by eminart

Biologically, why would a snake exhibit "love"? They aren't social animals. The very word "love" is a human construct used to explain biological adaptations that promote the spread of our genes. Other social animals exhibit some of the same "love" behaviors as humans. Reptiles, insects, etc. not so much.

I think you're anthropromorhizing the actions of your snake - actions that can be explained in ways that make more sense for a snake's natural behavior. The human brain looks for patterns. It often finds patterns where there really are none, or misinterprets animal behavior by applying human logic.

I agree with you 100%.

The reptilian brain is a very simple computer. I don't believe, at all, that it is capable of "higher emotions". I've had snakes since I was 5. I'm in my early 30s now. I have had very docile snakes but I never once felt like my snake was loving, self aware, or even capable of moderately complex thought, for that matter.

Snakes have "modes", as Steve Irwin used to say. Resting mode, mating mode, hunting mode, eating mode, exploring mode. That's it. It's like a Commodore 64 with scales.

[sophiedufort]

I must say that I am puzzled that most members seem to define 'love' based on human emotion. I never stated in this thread that I believe my snakes' affection to be comparable to that of humans. I simply said that they display affection in their own way, different from other species, and that many people fail to recognize those signs of affection simply because it is not similar to what we perceive to be affectionate behavior.
Snakes are not faithful creatures, I agree. They will not stick around if placed in a dangerous situation, they will not come back if left outdoors, they do not bond for life and so on. But who said that these are prerequisites to 'affection'?
I believe that most members will agree with me that snakes can grow to trust their owner and to differentiate between their handler and strangers. Trusting means to rely upon or place confidence in someone or something. Achieving such reliance is bound to be the result of repeated interaction. Snakes can easily reject that interaction by becoming aggressive. But when they choose not to, it means that they feel comfortable. Comfortable, not tolerant. Comfortable = contented and undisturbed, a state that, in snakes in particular, is logically associated with their acceptance of their handler. Acceptance = approval. Approval is manifested via 'licking', 'hugging', 'cuddling' and so on. All these manifestations are the result of feelings, emotions, the complexity of which, or the lack thereof, is irrelevant. I don't agree that a snake cannot be said to display affection just because that display is too primitive and not comparable to our own definition of love.

[KyleKennedy]

Snakes don't love you, they tolerate you. They are not affectionate by nature. Just because they seem docile, doesn't mean they care about you.

[Nuxodom]

I've had snakes for 40 years, been here one day :-)

I've had snakes that showed fear, content, rage, happiness and - yes - affection. They certainly have emotions. I see affection daily from them, if you know what you are looking for. It's not a "human affection" or "love," they have their own ways.

I've seen countless studies on this; some say they are not capable of "affection," others say they most certainly are. Take your pick, but I go with what I have experienced in four decades of snake handling. It's not disputable what I *have* seen and *do* see.

It's quite clear - at least in my snakes - what they like and dislike. This is emotion. They are comfortable with some people and not so much with others. One enjoys the hollow mountain while another prefers the half-log. Another wants to soak in the water while the others don't. Preferences. Emotions.

All my snakes have had unique personalities...no two are exactly the same. This includes showing "affection." Some may say they seek heat, hence it seems like affection. While this is true, I've certainly handled snakes in hot weather, where heat was not exactly desired. Yet, they still acted the same as they did in a cold house.

Some of my snakes seek me out on my bed nearly every time, to fall asleep by me, even when my wife is on the bed too or there are plenty of other things to cozy up to.

I think it's all down to opinion, and arguing the point is moot. I'm quite sure my snakes show affection along with other emotions; that's my opinion.

[MDT]

Originally Posted by mistersprinkles

The reptilian brain is a very simple computer. It's like a Commodore 64 with scales.

This is quite possibly the best post of the whole thread😂 and possibly my new sig line!

Being a child of the 70's/80's...I had a Commodore 64...pretty simple indeed!

[millertime89]

Originally Posted by SSSSnakes

Have to give the new Mods something to do, it's been boring around here lately. LOL

Sure has. This thread has given us something to do for a while.

[eminart]

Originally Posted by MesoCorney

Eminart corvids are generally accepted as the most intelligent bird group, but raptors are no dunces. Harris's Hawks are known to hunt in coordinated groups. Egyptian vultures use twigs to rake up wool for their nests. I am curious what you base your allocation of intelligence off of?
Ugghh another one of those comments. If you don't find this interesting why comment at all. I feel as passionate as the participants seem to be, it has been kept fairly civil. Why discourage friendly discourse?

I'm not sure how I discouraged friendly discourse?

Yes, corvids are certainly recognized as the most intelligent of birds. However, I've been around my fair share of Harris' hawks, and there's nothing particularly striking about their behavior. Yes, they hunt in groups, and seem to exhibit a very low level of problem-solving. But they'll also bind to the rump of a 100lb deer that they have zero chance of taking down, and that could injure or kill them. The "intelligence" they seem to have is centered in very specific areas and could be argued that they're merely acting on evolved instincts and not thinking at all. With the red tails that I commonly fly, they really seem not much different than reptiles. It seems that 90% of their actions are governed by instinct.

But, we're getting off track.

[Aaron_S]

End of the day we're all on the same side. We all love and enjoy our snakes. We show this in our own ways. As long as the snakes are well kept and cared for who cares how it's done or what someone thinks a snake can or cannot feel?

[Aaron_S]

Originally Posted by eminart

I'm not sure how I discouraged friendly discourse?

Yes, corvids are certainly recognized as the most intelligent of birds. However, I've been around my fair share of Harris' hawks, and there's nothing particularly striking about their behavior. Yes, they hunt in groups, and seem to exhibit a very low level of problem-solving. But they'll also bind to the rump of a 100lb deer that they have zero chance of taking down, and that could injure or kill them. The "intelligence" they seem to have is centered in very specific areas and could be argued that they're merely acting on evolved instincts and not thinking at all. With the red tails that I commonly fly, they really seem not much different than reptiles. It seems that 90% of their actions are governed by instinct.

But, we're getting off track.

I was once told by a falconer that the way to "train them" is solely through their stomach. Otherwise they'll never "perform."

[eminart]

Originally Posted by Aaron_S

I was once told by a falconer that the way to "train them" is solely through their stomach. Otherwise they'll never "perform."

100% correct.

[RAD House]

Sorry Eminart those last four sentences were not directed at you. I think it is staying on track in the sense that humans, specifically the general public, do not understand animals nearly as well as we think we do. Could it just be that you do not understand their way of thinking because you evolved in a different manner to be successful in different facets of life? I have to admit that I do not see much advantage in attacking an animal so much larger than itself, but captivity is not the most fertile ground for stimulating an animals intelligence.

[RAD House]

Aaron I think you could easily say that for any animal species, including Homo sapiens.