Monitor Care & Natural History; Zoo & Pet Experiences

[Pirarucu]

Originally Posted by infernalis

I am so sorry, How in the heck could I forget Dr. Burghardt???

Out of curiosity, do you happen to know how those animals are housed?

[Vegasarah]

Originally Posted by varanus_mad

how and why we apply that to captivity has been a much debated subject.

That is what I wad getting at, not that an all insectivore diet would be wrong. I just think that it might be a little lacking. But thats a whole nother topic!

[lady_bug87]

I'm really disappointed that Frank pulled out of this thread because of pride. And kudos to all the great contributions. Monitor keepers always amaze me in their devotion to proper information

[crocdoc]

Originally Posted by lady_bug87

I'm really disappointed that Frank pulled out of this thread because of pride.

Ha, you beat me by a few minutes. I was about to post exactly those sentiments (disappointment that he had pulled out of this thread because of pride), almost with the exact wording, and then saw that you had posted this a few minutes earlier.

Here's my take:

1. We've known for a long time that monitors have a very high preferred body temperature. There has been much literature on this and it isn't that hard to find.

2. We've also known for a long time that the surface temperature of objects that are outside and exposed to the sun is higher than a monitor's preferred body temperature, yet they still bask in the wild.

3. Because of 1. and 2., monitors have been kept with basking temperatures higher than preferred body temperatures for many years, now, and it has been found to be beneficial for them. It allows them to spend more time actively moving around, rather than spend much of their day basking, and allows them to self-medicate by raising their body temperature above preferred body temperature.

I can understand someone not being aware of these facts and repeating old husbandry practices verbatim, without researching for new information, because these were the standard practices when they worked in the zoo system a number of years ago. What I can't understand is having the above information pointed out and still insisting on spreading outdated information (such as keeping monitors with basking temperatures ten degrees below preferred body temperature, not even at preferred core body temperature, and then trying to justify it by saying that monitors can raise their body temperature above ambient). What's more, insisting on spreading that misinformation under the guise of 'care information' on the internet. All because he doesn't want to admit that he may have had incorrect, older information. Which shouldn't be a pride thing at all, as information changes and we all must adapt as we go, but for some reason seems to hit at the ego of some keepers. My apologies to Robyn, for I know this is not the way you like things handled, but I find this situation frustrating and ridiculous, not to mention the effect it will have on monitors kept by new keepers naively following that 'care information' they've just found online.

[lady_bug87]

I guess great minds think alike!

Some people just don't evolve. This isn't the first time he has cut his losses and left a thread because of people disagreeing with him.

He may think less of you all for challenging him, he may even tell his colleagues about the group of know it alls. But in turn I'm sure that many of us think less of him... it goes both ways. It really is unfortunate

[infernalis]

Originally Posted by crocdoc

I find this situation frustrating and ridiculous, not to mention the effect it will have on monitors kept by new keepers naively following that 'care information' they've just found online.

Just last night I tried to help a new keeper on another forum, but because what I had to say went against the..

1. pet store advice
2. information found in a 20 year old paperback book
3. youtube videos

I was a liar, and the new person refused to even listen to me, and about a half dozen other people.

With Frank's history with the BZ, and his small handful of published books (None are Varanid books) his blog will bear weight with the general public.

Honestly, because of that, I have removed the link to the blog from this forum, since I don't want that associated with the mission of this forum, nor do I want to bolster the search results when people are googling "monitor care"..

In fact I feel it would be remiss to leave that link on these boards.

[_Varanidae_]

Speaking of insufficient basking temperatures, where animals must bask for much of the day just to reach preferred body temperatures, I recently came across an article from the 1990s describing the behavioral repertoire/activity period of V. bengalensis in a zoo in India. This study found that captives spent 68.2% of their activity period basking.

Based on my experiences observing V. salvator and V. bengalensis nebulosus throughout Southeast Asia, I have a difficult time believing that a comparable amount of overall activity in the wild is normally spent basking- except perhaps in cooler weather periods. There was an article published in Biawak not too long ago which documented the basking habits of V. bengalensis nebulosus in northeastern Thailand. It reported on a single animal which basked for 5 or 6 hours a day- which would seem agreeable with the values mentioned above; however, these observations were made over a period where daytime highs reached only into the mid 80s (as opposed to the upper 90s during hotter parts of the year) and when there was considerable cloud cover and rainfall. Another factor to consider is that the sunlight is not as direct or intense during the times when the animal typically basked (early morning and late afternoon) (see: http://varanidae.org/Vol3_No3-Duengk...Chuaynkern.pdf).

Many of the monitors that I've encountered in the wild were foraging. Animals would occasionally stop to bask in patches of sunlight, but moved on usually after just a few minutes, not several hours, as is frequently seen in captivity. Dave has much experience observing wild V. varius, V. rosenbergi, and V. salvator, and I would wager that his observations and experiences have been similar.

[dinosaurdammit]

Originally Posted by _Varanidae_

Speaking of insufficient basking temperatures, where animals must bask for much of the day just to reach preferred body temperatures, I recently came across an article from the 1990s describing the behavioral repertoire/activity period of V. bengalensis in a zoo in India. This study found that captives spent 68.2% of their activity period basking.

Based on my experiences observing V. salvator and V. bengalensis nebulosus throughout Southeast Asia, I have a difficult time believing that a comparable amount of overall activity in the wild is normally spent basking- except perhaps in cooler weather periods. There was an article published in Biawak not too long ago which documented the basking habits of V. bengalensis nebulosus in northeastern Thailand. It reported on a single animal which basked for 5 or 6 hours a day- which would seem agreeable with the values mentioned above; however, these observations were made over a period where daytime highs reached only into the mid 80s (as opposed to the upper 90s during hotter parts of the year) and when there was considerable cloud cover and rainfall. Another factor to consider is that the sunlight is not as direct or intense during the times when the animal typically basked (early morning and late afternoon) (see: http://varanidae.org/Vol3_No3-Duengk...Chuaynkern.pdf).

Many of the monitors that I've encountered in the wild were foraging. Animals would occasionally stop to bask in patches of sunlight, but moved on usually after just a few minutes, not several hours, as is frequently seen in captivity. Dave has much experience observing wild V. varius, V. rosenbergi, and V. salvator, and I would wager that his observations and experiences have been similar.

now that i think about it, pajaaamas only spends about 2 hours in a total day basking, and its not all at once its off and on throughout the day

[Robyn@SYR]

Originally Posted by crocdoc

My apologies to Robyn, for I know this is not the way you like things handled, but I find this situation frustrating and ridiculous, not to mention the effect it will have on monitors kept by new keepers naively following that 'care information' they've just found online.

LOL, you don't have to apologize to me, and I don't have any issue with the replies of the last few pages, not at all. It does seem that Frank has left for good though, and that is a bummer.

I was hoping for some actual dialogue with him, maybe we will get another chance in the future.

[crocdoc]

No worries, Robyn!

Originally Posted by Robyn@SYR

I was hoping for some actual dialogue with him, maybe we will get another chance in the future.

'Dialogue' suggests a two-way exchange of information/ideas. I suspect that's not Frank's forte.

[lady_bug87]

I don't think that's the case.... I just don't think he doesn't like being wrong... or outdated

[crocdoc]

Same thing. A two way exchange of information is exactly that.

A one way flow of information is one person telling everyone else what's 'right' and not accepting any information flow in the other direction.

[infernalis]

Hence why he has a blog rather than a forum.

A blog is one sided, and the blog owner can accept or reject comments.

A forum is an exchange of ideas and information.