An aspiring keeper with many curiosities

[Dracorex5]

Originally Posted by MDT

????????????????
Seriously?

Yes... Georgia's reptile laws are extremely strict. Anything thats native or relativly close to being native (certain relatives of some colubrids, etc) are not allowed to be kept unless they are a pest animal (so basically venomous, how ironic!). Even if you got it out of state legally, you technically aren't allowed to keep it it's sad.... corn snakes are so facinating

[Dracorex5]

So that makes ratsnakes, cornsnakes, most garter snakes, and certain types of kingsnakes illegal all over the state. It can get a little crazy.... I work at nature center and people bring in nice morphs of snakes that they feel oblidged to give up to follow the law. We have a albino corn snake education animal whose owners had just bought it in Florida a few months before bringing her to us.

[Roadtrash]

Yeah, I grew up in Georgia and they do tend to do things a little different there. I remember years ago in one of the hunting regulation pamphlets they had wild hogs listed with small game and the weapons to take them with were 22 cal. and shotguns with number 6 shot. Now it is possible to take them with said weapons but usually this would just make them mad and get you into trouble.
But hey, don't give up on hots if they are your passion just take your time and learn all you can from everybody you meet. A lot of good knowledgeable people on this forum and most of them seem to be super cautious as they should be. Just remember, trial and error works pretty good with a garter snake but with a cobra not so much. One little error could be your last.

[Aaron_S]

Originally Posted by Dracorex5

....I don't know, I've been told my entire life I cant do things for this reason and that, and I've always been a bit stubborn about it. But stubbornness can lead to foolish decisions, I've broken eneogh bones to prove it!....

Being stubborn in this game will only get you killed. Honestly, from all your posts here in this thread, I think you need to continue learning basic animal care.

Just word to the wise, no non-venomous snake really prepares you for the attitude of a venomous. It's like they know they can kill you with a single hit and aren't afraid to do it sometimes.


Randy, I didn't see your question so I apologize for the delay. I never have looked into home insurance for keeping venomous snakes as it's not something I've really needed to. I would suggest because you've got a live, dangerous animal in your home that they may not like it and stop covering you. More to the point would be the enclosure and such. Sometimes just having any heating element may make stop covering you due to an increase in a potential fire. You'd have to ask an actual insurance agent if it would actually increase or if they'd just not cover you. If you do, please let me know!

[etc]

OP. I have been in the same situation for the past 4 years. Let me begin by telling you that there is nothing wrong with being fascinated by venomous snakes and wanting to experience them at first hand in captivity. A lot of people who has never seen venomous snakes outside of a zoological setting will try to give you advice on how to keep them or in many cases - to not keep them, and you have to be selective about what you read. Learn to differentiate insults under the guise of "I'm trying to save your life" and real advice. Stick with the ones with hands on experience who will try to save your life the right way - this is of course, if you are for real and you have decided firmly to walk in this path.

I can't give you any technical advice as I'm in the beginning stages of my venture, but I'll tell you what I have done to prepare myself.

No matter what people may say to you when you mention that you want to keep venomous snakes; whether they put you down or even attempt to present you as a stupid person publicly - as long as your passions are true to yourself (not trying to impress your buddies with a "rad snake, man"), you should know that you're equipped with the right mindset.

The important thing here is learning. I have spent a lot of hours trying to cover as much topic as I can on venomous keeping. Research isn't everything and hands on practice will go a long way, but the latter isn't always a viable option. You should really try to know as much as you can about this before you ever one bring home a venomous snake. This isn't a learn-as-you-go hobby, that's a really good way to get hospitalized or even, pass on. When you are ready to bring home a venomous snake, I think you will know it. You will be prepared with every bit of knowledge and skills that you've got and you will certainly not be asking for other people's approval in whether or not it's okay for you to keep one.

A lot of people claim that non-venomous snakes can't possibly ever prepare you for a venomous snake. This is not true. While it will be difficult to find a snake that will replicate a venomous snake's movements; there are comparative species out there with similar temperaments and husbandry needs, to ultimately help you for a smoother transition in the end without stepping on the venomous territory.

I'd hate to be an agist but you're only 17. While there aren't always a correlation between one's age and maturity/capacity, you wouldn't be doing wrong in waiting a couple of more years.

Do yourself a favour and order this book - Venomous Snakes in Captivity: Safety and Husbandry

If you order it directly from the publisher like I did it will save you a lot of money vs. ordering it on amazon. This would be an excellent starting point for you. Good luck and feel free to shoot me a message if you want some research tips.

[etc]

P.S. If memory serves me right Georgia is quite hectic to get a permit for venomous snakes. I think you need an outhouse just for that purpose.

Regardless, I would even e-mail BW Smith (a google search will yield results) and start probing him with questions as he's Georgia man himself. He was prompt in his reply and as you will be relegated to keeping native species only, he should be able to give you good pointers.

[Aaron_S]

Originally Posted by etc

P.S. If memory serves me right Georgia is quite hectic to get a permit for venomous snakes. I think you need an outhouse just for that purpose.

Regardless, I would even e-mail BW Smith (a google search will yield results) and start probing him with questions as he's Georgia man himself. He was prompt in his reply and as you will be relegated to keeping native species only, he should be able to give you good pointers.

1. Is this who you mentored underneath?
2. I have kept venomous so I speak from experience and not just because I'm against it.
3. "Similar" attitude isn't the same as an actual attitude of a venomous snake. Aside from that, keeping snakes with "similar" movements and using all the same protocols and procedures you'd use with a venomous snake is a good way to see if you're ready or REALLY want to keep venomous snakes. There's a lot of small things people seem to overlook like the simple step of re-filling water dishes.

[etc]

Originally Posted by Aaron_S

1. Is this who you mentored underneath?
2. I have kept venomous so I speak from experience and not just because I'm against it.
3. "Similar" attitude isn't the same as an actual attitude of a venomous snake. Aside from that, keeping snakes with "similar" movements and using all the same protocols and procedures you'd use with a venomous snake is a good way to see if you're ready or REALLY want to keep venomous snakes. There's a lot of small things people seem to overlook like the simple step of re-filling water dishes.

1. No, I've never been to Georgia.

2. Why are you against it now? What have you kept? Regardless, there are better ways to encourage/discourage people instead of belittling them. Just as you once kept and have now decided to be against it; others are free to be interested in these fascinating creatures. With it comes huge responsibility and a long and hard thought introspective self reasoning of cost/benefit analysis. While it's a very good idea to instill that sense of reality into those who are interested, I don't think there is any valid reason to attack them for doing the right thing - asking questions, which is something that they should be doing instead of just going and buying venomous snakes as if they were candies. I believe that this sort of attitude will do more harm than intended; as one could be put off from asking questions altogether from negative experiences and make mistakes that could've been prevented.

3. Similar or comparable, regardless the word identical wasn't there. To the rest of your point, agreed. Although I'm not a big fan of just re-filling the water bowls, one could use restraining tubes to refill it.

[Aaron_S]

Originally Posted by etc

1. No, I've never been to Georgia.

2. Why are you against it now? What have you kept? Regardless, there are better ways to encourage/discourage people instead of belittling them. Just as you once kept and have now decided to be against it; others are free to be interested in these fascinating creatures. With it comes huge responsibility and a long and hard thought introspective self reasoning of cost/benefit analysis. While it's a very good idea to instill that sense of reality into those who are interested, I don't think there is any valid reason to attack them for doing the right thing - asking questions, which is something that they should be doing instead of just going and buying venomous snakes as if they were candies. I believe that this sort of attitude will do more harm than intended; as one could be put off from asking questions altogether from negative experiences and make mistakes that could've been prevented.

3. Similar or comparable, regardless the word identical wasn't there. To the rest of your point, agreed. Although I'm not a big fan of just re-filling the water bowls, one could use restraining tubes to refill it.

I'm glad to see he wrote a book and that you've read it nonetheless.

I'm against it? Probably more so now than ever before because not only do I know firsthand what can possibly happen and all the small things that can go wrong. I turn to the fact I'm a father and the cost/benefit ratio just isn't there. Along with the fact that the cost/benefit ratio was NEVER there. I had no "skin in the game" of learning more or doing something at large for the community. I only kept a copperhead while in college. I did just that as you said, bought a snake with very little mentorship. Luckily, I didn't die or wasn't a drain on my health system. I read and just learn now from afar and I'm content with that.

I don't get what you mean by using restraint tubes. Did you mean actually restraining a snake via a tube for simple water changes? I would find that rather difficult to do and would prefer trap boxes.

I also don't see how I really belittled this person. I just find them to be immature in the way they present themselves at this time and I wouldn't let them near my ball python collection let alone any venomous snake of any sort.

[etc]

Originally Posted by Aaron_S

I'm glad to see he wrote a book and that you've read it nonetheless.

I'm against it? Probably more so now than ever before because not only do I know firsthand what can possibly happen and all the small things that can go wrong. I turn to the fact I'm a father and the cost/benefit ratio just isn't there. Along with the fact that the cost/benefit ratio was NEVER there. I had no "skin in the game" of learning more or doing something at large for the community. I only kept a copperhead while in college. I did just that as you said, bought a snake with very little mentorship. Luckily, I didn't die or wasn't a drain on my health system. I read and just learn now from afar and I'm content with that.

I don't get what you mean by using restraint tubes. Did you mean actually restraining a snake via a tube for simple water changes? I would find that rather difficult to do and would prefer trap boxes.

I also don't see how I really belittled this person. I just find them to be immature in the way they present themselves at this time and I wouldn't let them near my ball python collection let alone any venomous snake of any sort.

Good on you and I mean that. Venomous snakes and fatherhood don't mix well I perceive. What we should consider though, is that our individual circumstances all vary and what may not work for another person may work for another. The thing about cost/benefit analysis is that it varies from person to person. If it didn't work out for you and if you're all of sudden against it, that's okay. You're not in the wrong for that but there is a problem when one goes around and enforces these opinions on other people as if it was the most complete and accurate one. If harm reduction is the intention here, there has to be a better way.

No, I did not mean that. I meant using the restraining tube as a funnel as a means of keeping safe distance from the snake.

If you are as smart as you present yourself to be, you too-well know that you have belittled the person and you are continuing to do so in an underhanded manner.

[Aaron_S]

Originally Posted by etc

...If you are as smart as you present yourself to be, you too-well know that you have belittled the person and you are continuing to do so in an underhanded manner.

I do it on a regular basis. I really don't care to be cautious on how I say things to people and honestly I could be much worse with this person.

I've spoken with a few venomous keepers on this forum and there's one in particular who I debate with now and then on this very topic. We don't do it to sway one another as we know it won't happen, and I also know I won't necessarily sway anyone else. I like to bring forth the awareness of what can happen. I don't think I need to be nice about it either as it won't be nice to you in the alternative.

Recently, I've discovered a young woman in my area who started out with False Water Cobras in her late teens. She grew too fast in her hobby and was bitten by a copperhead on her mid thigh. She's alive and recovering and at it again. I don't wish her to be bit, or for her to necessarily stop what she's doing(I'd also be quite glad if she did) but I want her to be less arrogant about her experience, or lack of, and knowledge.

For the OP, she was a small woman probably of similar stature to you. She is book smart about things but not hands on or even close to ready for hots (and now she's breeding gabby's and other's, or attempting to.) Don't be a statistic.

[etc]

Playing the devil’s advocate is actually somewhat of a necessity for dangerous activities, so you’re making a good contribution. The debates based on our opinions are a very healthy thing, and a welcomed read for anyone who’s interested in the topic in my opinion.

However, if you admittedly don’t care how you come across when you’re trying to make a point - you should know that your demeanor alone could easily nullify your very effort. The way you have gone about it leaves little room for self-examination for the intended party, just an unnecessary emotional reaction. You don’t raise awareness by hurling personal attacks over the Internet forum. Rather, a more effective way would be acting diplomatically and stating your points even if you didn’t agree in order to provoke rational thinking.

I have a loose idea as to whom you’re referring to. I wish her well in her recoveries and an elevated level of caution in her practices.

[Aaron_S]

Originally Posted by etc

Playing the devil’s advocate is actually somewhat of a necessity for dangerous activities, so you’re making a good contribution. The debates based on our opinions are a very healthy thing, and a welcomed read for anyone who’s interested in the topic in my opinion.

However, if you admittedly don’t care how you come across when you’re trying to make a point - you should know that your demeanor alone could easily nullify your very effort. The way you have gone about it leaves little room for self-examination for the intended party, just an unnecessary emotional reaction. You don’t raise awareness by hurling personal attacks over the Internet forum. Rather, a more effective way would be acting diplomatically and stating your points even if you didn’t agree in order to provoke rational thinking.

I have a loose idea as to whom you’re referring to. I wish her well in her recoveries and an elevated level of caution in her practices.

If you wish we can continue the continuation of our local herper in PM.

As for everything else, it works for some and not for others. From my personal experience while growing in the hobby it was the more rash slap in the face that worked and not the more diplomatic way. Even if it's an emotional outburst or reaction usually that subsides and in the person's own thoughts or away from the public they re-think what was said and come to a good conclusion. Usually.

Think of it this way, do more people remember the negative or positive? What do people prefer to see on the news? Do people generally talk about and think about the bad or the good? It's rather simple human behaviour I work with.

Either way, you and I will just have to agree to disagree.

[etc]

People who are seeking knowledge around these parts should have access to information without being interrupted by personal attacks. They are not opening themselves up to unwanted and unwarranted criticism that is based on another person’s experience. You are free to be led by ideologies that are best suited for your value system; the one that’s been shaped by your past experiences. I am not here to dispute that, but what I have and will continue to criticize is the method in which you have gone about enforcing these values.

No matter how strongly you feel about a certain topic, it doesn’t inherently equip you with the right to throw insults at people – whether or not you really lack concern for their regard. Freedom of Speech? If you understand the contextual framework and the way in which our basic human rights are implemented; it’s to protect people from harm, instead of removing liabilities in a situation where a person is responsible for his/her actions. No one expects you become a proponent of venomous keeping, or even choose a side. However, I do hope that you will start to respect other people’s boundaries; for you do not get to choose how they respond to your negative reinforcement.

[Lankyrob]

Originally Posted by etc

People who are seeking knowledge around these parts should have access to information without being interrupted by personal attacks. They are not opening themselves up to unwanted and unwarranted criticism that is based on another person’s experience. You are free to be led by ideologies that are best suited for your value system; the one that’s been shaped by your past experiences. I am not here to dispute that, but what I have and will continue to criticize is the method in which you have gone about enforcing these values.

No matter how strongly you feel about a certain topic, it doesn’t inherently equip you with the right to throw insults at people – whether or not you really lack concern for their regard. Freedom of Speech? If you understand the contextual framework and the way in which our basic human rights are implemented; it’s to protect people from harm, instead of removing liabilities in a situation where a person is responsible for his/her actions. No one expects you become a proponent of venomous keeping, or even choose a side. However, I do hope that you will start to respect other people’s boundaries; for you do not get to choose how they respond to your negative reinforcement.

Personal insults breach forum rules and result in a ban, i have never seen Aaron insult anyone, and the fact he is still here proves that as fact.