Burm/ball hybrid

[Gregg M]

Originally Posted by Aaron_S

I know it's become a generalized hybrid debate but show me the wild caught burmese x ball python hybrid and we can then talk all about the natural intergrades.

I never stateg that a burm ball was natural. I asked about natural hybrids being that CDN made a blanket statement that hybrids in general, are not natural. You do have to admit that it is pretty odd that 2 different species can successfully produce healthy offspring that can go on to produce their own offspring. If it were not supposed to happen, it wouldnt. Primates and humans can not interbreed successfully because the genetic code does not match. However with different species of reptiles, the genetic codes do match.

We can talk about natural hybrids and intergrades all we like. In captivity, anything natural is thrown out the window anyway. Where do we draw the line at how unnatural we want to go with breeding. The only logical answer is...... As far as you personally want to go. The truth is, whether you care to admit it or not, the rules of nature do not apply in captivity and anything pretty much goes.
We as humans "play god". Basically, when it comes to our captive reptiles, we are indeed god. Whe control every aspect of their captive life. When they eat, when they drink, when they brumate, when and who they breed with. This is NOTHING natural about what we do.

I see no difference at all between breeding morphs and breeding hybrids. Only instead of introducing new, healthy genes like when breeding hybrids, you are perpetuating defective genes when you breed morphs. Seriously, is one less bad than the other?

Just something to think about here. We humans are a natural part of the environment on earth.As natural as a storm or plate shift that makes continents either break apart or collide. Being that we are a natural force of nature, how unnatural is it that we force two diffrent species together and they then do what comes naturally to them?

[Aaron_S]

Originally Posted by Gregg M

I never stateg that a burm ball was natural. I asked about natural hybrids being that CDN made a blanket statement that hybrids in general, are not natural. You do have to admit that it is pretty odd that 2 different species can successfully produce healthy offspring that can go on to produce their own offspring. If it were not supposed to happen, it wouldnt. Primates and humans can not interbreed successfully because the genetic code does not match. However with different species of reptiles, the genetic codes do match.

We can talk about natural hybrids and intergrades all we like. In captivity, anything natural is thrown out the window anyway. Where do we draw the line at how unnatural we want to go with breeding. The only logical answer is...... As far as you personally want to go. The truth is, whether you care to admit it or not, the rules of nature do not apply in captivity and anything pretty much goes.
We as humans "play god". Basically, when it comes to our captive reptiles, we are indeed god. Whe control every aspect of their captive life. When they eat, when they drink, when they brumate, when and who they breed with. This is NOTHING natural about what we do.

I see no difference at all between breeding morphs and breeding hybrids. Only instead of introducing new, healthy genes like when breeding hybrids, you are perpetuating defective genes when you breed morphs. Seriously, is one less bad than the other?

Just something to think about here. We humans are a natural part of the environment on earth.As natural as a storm or plate shift that makes continents either break apart or collide. Being that we are a natural force of nature, how unnatural is it that we force two diffrent species together and they then do what comes naturally to them?

I see your point but I'm just not going to debate it. It's a discussion I rather not get into as it's never ending.

I see your point as I mentioned on what you were talking about with natural intergrades.

I think it's interesting that two animals can make hybrids. Fertile ones at that. It's personally not something I wish to do though. I prefer all my pretty colours.

[jaleely]

Originally Posted by Gregg M

He was wild caught in west Africa. Came in on an import from Ghana. He was an adult when he was imported. These wild caught hybrids come in pretty often. Wild caught female gaboons that were gravid at the time of import have dropped entire litters of hybrids as well.

I think that's kind of cool, actually. I still like the look of a plain old gaboon viper though! : )

Originally Posted by Gregg M

I never stateg that a burm ball was natural. I asked about natural hybrids being that CDN made a blanket statement that hybrids in general, are not natural. You do have to admit that it is pretty odd that 2 different species can successfully produce healthy offspring that can go on to produce their own offspring. If it were not supposed to happen, it wouldnt. Primates and humans can not interbreed successfully because the genetic code does not match. However with different species of reptiles, the genetic codes do match.

We can talk about natural hybrids and intergrades all we like. In captivity, anything natural is thrown out the window anyway. Where do we draw the line at how unnatural we want to go with breeding. The only logical answer is...... As far as you personally want to go. The truth is, whether you care to admit it or not, the rules of nature do not apply in captivity and anything pretty much goes.
We as humans "play god". Basically, when it comes to our captive reptiles, we are indeed god. Whe control every aspect of their captive life. When they eat, when they drink, when they brumate, when and who they breed with. This is NOTHING natural about what we do.

I see no difference at all between breeding morphs and breeding hybrids. Only instead of introducing new, healthy genes like when breeding hybrids, you are perpetuating defective genes when you breed morphs. Seriously, is one less bad than the other?

Just something to think about here. We humans are a natural part of the environment on earth.As natural as a storm or plate shift that makes continents either break apart or collide. Being that we are a natural force of nature, how unnatural is it that we force two diffrent species together and they then do what comes naturally to them?

ah kind of a good point. I mull over this a lot. I kind of disagree with muddy lines, but then i also believe that if they weren't close enough genetically to breed, then it just wouldn't happen...and therefore may not be a big deal.

I also go back and forth about morphs. Some people made some good points about the garters and other snakes in Europe that have been "inbred" for generations, because that's all that were available. I DO think that there had to be some pretty strong genetics to begin with to last this long, and i do think that picking out morphs can sometimes also strengthen genetic faults...in the case of all the snakes coming from one set of parents, people aren't breeding morphs, they're just breeding to breed them...so perhaps some traits aren't strengthened, but may be passed on but are recessive. When it comes to specific pattern and color breeding, as with morphs, i guess i just wish snake temperament and health played a bigger factor rather than color and pattern.

I don't know. Sometimes i am swayed. lol I admit it. We'll have to see how i feel after i breed. I plan to breed my dumeril's boas, sand boas, and hognoses, maybe my garters, all in the future *shrug*

[KORBIN5895]

Originally Posted by Gregg M

I never stateg that a burm ball was natural. I asked about natural hybrids being that CDN made a blanket statement that hybrids in general, are not natural. You do have to admit that it is pretty odd that 2 different species can successfully produce healthy offspring that can go on to produce their own offspring. If it were not supposed to happen, it wouldnt. Primates and humans can not interbreed successfully because the genetic code does not match. However with different species of reptiles, the genetic codes do match.

Do you have proof to support this? First hand experience maybe?

[Gregg M]

Originally Posted by KORBIN5895

Do you have proof to support this? First hand experience maybe?

Yeah, take a look at hybrids that can produce viable offspring. So far, every species of snake that has been hybridized successfully are fertile. If their gentic codes did not match up, we would not even be having this debate. My first hand experience is with my gaboon/rhino viper hybrids. You can not deny what happens infront of your face. Obviously, there are certain crosses that can not happen in reptiles because of their genetic differences.

Taxonomy is a man made ology. LOL. What taxonomist used to believe is flipped upside down because of viable, fertile reptilian hybrids. These animals are a lot closer related than we once thought.

[KORBIN5895]

Originally Posted by Gregg M

Yeah, take a look at hybrids that can produce viable offspring. So far, every species of snake that has been hybridized successfully are fertile. If their gentic codes did not match up, we would not even be having this debate. My first hand experience is with my gaboon/rhino viper hybrids. You can not deny what happens infront of your face. Obviously, there are certain crosses that can not happen in reptiles because of their genetic differences.

Taxonomy is a man made ology. LOL. What taxonomist used to believe is flipped upside down because of viable, fertile reptilian hybrids. These animals are a lot closer related than we once thought.

Well Greg I never took you yo be one of them!

Go back and read what I put in bold. Maybe you will feel differently about admitting it on a public forum!

[Gregg M]

Originally Posted by KORBIN5895

Well Greg I never took you yo be one of them!

Go back and read what I put in bold. Maybe you will feel differently about admitting it on a public forum!

LOL. I didnt catch the statement in bold dude. LOL. To answer that question, no I have no first hand experience with trying to breed with primates. Although I am sure I would creat some really good looking monkeys if I did. LOL.