I hate this..

[mo9e64]

This 'snake keepers' mentality has and still is one of the biggest setbacks to educating people about monitor husbandry.Unfortunately the control aspect fights adversly with the interest of our charges-monitor don't have the low threshold of care that snakes can subsist and procreate under.Having been in the monitor forum,hearing someone speak of a creature breeding at a size it was biologically designed to do outside human expectations and control i find odd.

As far as being frustrated by people not taking advice,or impulse buys-that is beyond my control.My responsibilty is to take care of my monitors beyond the best of my abilities-not accepting boundaries set by others or possibly my own prejudices,but what my monitor is telling me with the help of a broad spectrum of experienced keepers.Selfish that benefits others is after all another justification that will just have to do

[exwizard]

Originally Posted by mo9e64

As far as being frustrated by people not taking advice,or impulse buys-that is beyond my control.My responsibilty is to take care of my monitors beyond the best of my abilities-not accepting boundaries set by others or possibly my own prejudices,but what my monitor is telling me with the help of a broad spectrum of experienced keepers.Selfish that benefits others is after all another justification that will just have to do

This is well said and really applies to ALL reptiles. When I give advice, I fully accept the possibility that the recipient will not take it. That responsibility is not mine as its on them.

[Gregg M]

Originally Posted by mo9e64

This 'snake keepers' mentality has and still is one of the biggest setbacks to educating people about monitor husbandry.Unfortunately the control aspect fights adversly with the interest of our charges-monitor don't have the low threshold of care that snakes can subsist and procreate under.

Being a snake breeder I have to disagree with your take on the "snake keeper mentality".

You can keep and breed snakes in conditions that are substandad in my eyes. You can also keep and breed monitors in the same substandard conditions. However, as with varanids, many snake species will fail to thrive after a period of time. They will die early on in life, lay crappy clutches after a couple of seasons, and have other health issues. Monitors are not the only reptiles that should be given what they need to thrive.

Monitor breeders are not an elite group and snake breeders will run into similar problems if their reptiles are not given options.

I honestly think ost snake breeders are behind the times and the ones who are up to par are not sharing information. You would be suprised to know that some snake keepers keep their snakes like we do monitors. My snakes are kept in racks however, they have deep bioactive substrates, high basking temps, and are fed pretty frequently.

[mo9e64]

When i say 'mentality' i'm not talking the whole community.Are the methods you talk about commonplace and pretty much accepted by the snake keeping community.I am just going by the few times i have brought it up on a Canadian reptile forum-i was told it was blasphemy and forced to curl up in my room in the fetal position.'Give reptiles choice...heretic LOL.I certainly don't want to give the impression that monitor keepers are elitist,it's just my opinion many snake keepers think that their methods are superior to the methods Gregg described

[bushsnake]

Originally Posted by Gregg M

Being a snake breeder I have to disagree with your take on the "snake keeper mentality".

You can keep and breed snakes in conditions that are substandad in my eyes. You can also keep and breed monitors in the same substandard conditions. However, as with varanids, many snake species will fail to thrive after a period of time. They will die early on in life, lay crappy clutches after a couple of seasons, and have other health issues. Monitors are not the only reptiles that should be given what they need to thrive.

Monitor breeders are not an elite group and snake breeders will run into similar problems if their reptiles are not given options.

I honestly think ost snake breeders are behind the times and the ones who are up to par are not sharing information. You would be suprised to know that some snake keepers keep their snakes like we do monitors. My snakes are kept in racks however, they have deep bioactive substrates, high basking temps, and are fed pretty frequently.

nobody learns by being criticized, lead by example is all anyone can do. Talk about what you do, show people...educate, some people will get it, some wont...but thats just how it is with everything
bushsnake

[bushsnake]

thats because people hate to be critized no matter how nice you are about it. Its a people thing..."people do people things"...kind of how you felt critized by Frank R Wayne

[mo9e64]

So what are you saying-if we have to choose between personalities and the welfare of our animals choose personalties.Remember the comments i made were generalities,not absolute comments made about a community.

Our monitor community as a whole has a dismall record overall,you cannot apply the typical snake husbandry to monitors.A lot of snake keepers cross over to the monitor community this is a fair comment.

[infernalis]

Originally Posted by mo9e64

So what are you saying-if we have to choose between personalities and the welfare of our animals choose personalties.Remember the comments i made were generalities,not absolute comments made about a community.

Our monitor community as a whole has a dismall record overall,you cannot apply the typical snake husbandry to monitors.A lot of snake keepers cross over to the monitor community this is a fair comment.

You are absolutely right.

One of the things I see every day, and have been guilty of myself in the past, Monitors are not snakes, not even close.

So whatever husbandry you know about snakes, no matter how good it is, only partially applies to monitors.

[bushsnake]

Originally Posted by mo9e64

So what are you saying-if we have to choose between personalities and the welfare of our animals choose personalties.Remember the comments i made were generalities,not absolute comments made about a community.

Our monitor community as a whole has a dismall record overall,you cannot apply the typical snake husbandry to monitors.A lot of snake keepers cross over to the monitor community this is a fair comment.

no thats not what i was saying.....at all! nevermind...

[Gregg M]

Originally Posted by mo9e64

So what are you saying-if we have to choose between personalities and the welfare of our animals choose personalties.Remember the comments i made were generalities,not absolute comments made about a community.

Mo, we all know you are here just to start trouble. LOL

Originally Posted by mo9e64

Our monitor community as a whole has a dismall record overall,you cannot apply the typical snake husbandry to monitors.A lot of snake keepers cross over to the monitor community this is a fair comment.

I get what you are saying for sure. My pont is, the "snake keeper mentality" is actually "the people who do not know any better or dont care mentality". The same can be said for the majority of monitor keepers. To me, keeping any animals on paper towels or news print is cruel. This includes snakes.

I produced thousands of leopard geckos in rack systems using paper towel as a substrate for years. These days I do not breed them on any scale worth mentioning (I keep them because I like them). I keep them on deep, bio-active substrates and I would never go back to paper towels ever for any species. The difference it has made in behavior, health, and longevity is astounding. No suprize that the huge majority of leopard keepers and breeders refuse to use substrates and stick to paper towels. Mostly because people believe that sand causes impaction. It can not have anything to do with their crappy husbandry. LOL.

[KORBIN5895]

Originally Posted by infernalis

I got banned here..

I still think a paper bag would look better......

[Gungirl]

If you got banned you can not post....

[alessia55]

Originally Posted by Gungirl

If you got banned you can not post....

Exactly what I was going to say!

[bushsnake]

Originally Posted by Gregg M

Mo, we all know you are here just to start trouble. LOL



I get what you are saying for sure. My pont is, the "snake keeper mentality" is actually "the people who do not know any better or dont care mentality". The same can be said for the majority of monitor keepers. To me, keeping any animals on paper towels or news print is cruel. This includes snakes.

I produced thousands of leopard geckos in rack systems using paper towel as a substrate for years. These days I do not breed them on any scale worth mentioning (I keep them because I like them). I keep them on deep, bio-active substrates and I would never go back to paper towels ever for any species. The difference it has made in behavior, health, and longevity is astounding. No suprize that the huge majority of leopard keepers and breeders refuse to use substrates and stick to paper towels. Mostly because people believe that sand causes impaction. It can not have anything to do with their crappy husbandry. LOL.

hypo lavender albino corn, sunglow boas, green granite burms and bla bla bla...people dont wanna keep these types of animals in a naturalistic environment...it might get dirty lol...i think people that have their head rapped around the morph game have forgotten that their animal is a living creature and should be in sterile environment

[mo9e64]

Why should an animal be in a sterile environment?