Hybrids?

andybe18 · 01-24-12, 10:15 AM

If you don't agree or have a moral arguement against hybrids then you also need to be against a lot of morphs - albinoism, aneryism etc has been introduced into some snakes through hybridization.

**millertime89** · 01-25-12, 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andybe18

If you don't agree or have a moral arguement against hybrids then you also need to be against a lot of morphs - albinoism, aneryism etc has been introduced into some snakes through hybridization.

some, but nowhere close to enough to necessitate this statement. Its very species specific.

andybe18 · 01-25-12, 05:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by millertime89

some, but nowhere close to enough to necessitate this statement. Its very species specific.

How?
What is species specific?

red ink · 01-25-12, 06:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andybe18

If you don't agree or have a moral arguement against hybrids then you also need to be against a lot of morphs - albinoism, aneryism etc has been introduced into some snakes through hybridization.

I don't understand, could you elaborate on this......

peterm15 · 01-25-12, 07:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by exwizard

I agree with this with only one exception. I would love someday to have a wolf dog.

Seeing as domestic dogs do not have specific Latin names that is another story in itself.

Quote:

Originally Posted by millertime89

carpondros and bateaters are about the only crosses that I'm ok with that I can think of other than the ones that naturally occur.

Bateaters and carpondros are the worst IMO, as neither are naturally occurring and are not even close to crossing in the wild. Both are mules last I heard. ( unless bred back to a pure animal)

When it comes to carpets, Latin names are the same minus sub species, so its more like a morph.

Quote:

Originally Posted by andybe18

If you don't agree or have a moral arguement against hybrids then you also need to be against a lot of morphs - albinoism, aneryism etc has been introduced into some snakes through hybridization.

I suggest you do some actual research on this subject before posting false statements like that.
Morphs are genetic deficiencies that can happen in any animal ( example albino PEOPLE) even blue eyes and blond hair ( which i have) are considered deficiencies and are recessive genes. What breeders do is breed specifically for that trait. Through INBREEDING not hybridization.

As for naturally occurring hybrids. It can happen, I just don’t see the need in spoiling the captive genetic pool with these animals. Unless the animal can breed with one of the same hybrid, there is no need for them. Eg corn x milk X corn x milk. It makes the situation a little better but still no need for it.

**millertime89** · 01-26-12, 02:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andybe18

How?
What is species specific?

There aren't very many morphs that I'm aware of that have been crossed from one species to another then bred down to where the desired species blood has essentially diluted the original species blood to where its pretty much a species with the morph of another species.

Quote:

Originally Posted by peterm15

Bateaters and carpondros are the worst IMO, as neither are naturally occurring and are not even close to crossing in the wild. Both are mules last I heard. ( unless bred back to a pure animal)

I won't disagree, but do you know how many people are producing them? Not very many. And when it does happen, they're VERY clearly specified. You would be correct, a bateater x retic or burm is called a jungle retic or burm. I have never heard of a bateater x bateater breeding, but that doesn't mean it can't happen.

Quote:

Originally Posted by peterm15

I suggest you do some actual research on this subject before posting false statements like that.
Morphs are genetic deficiencies that can happen in any animal ( example albino PEOPLE) even blue eyes and blond hair ( which i have) are considered deficiencies and are recessive genes. What breeders do is breed specifically for that trait. Through INBREEDING not hybridization.

The two examples that I can think of off the top of my head is jungle morelia morph and one of the boa morphs, I want to say salmon or hypo maybe?

Quote:

Originally Posted by peterm15

As for naturally occurring hybrids. It can happen, I just don’t see the need in spoiling the captive genetic pool with these animals. Unless the animal can breed with one of the same hybrid, there is no need for them. Eg corn x milk X corn x milk. It makes the situation a little better but still no need for it.

I would agree with this in general, but I still love seeing a good bateater.

red ink · 01-26-12, 02:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by millertime89

The two examples that I can think of off the top of my head is jungle morelia morph and one of the boa morphs, I want to say salmon or hypo maybe?

As in Jungle carpet python?
A JCP is not a morph...

peterm15 · 01-26-12, 03:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by millertime89

...

I didn't want to quote your whole post.

Nothing wrong with anything you said. I assume the morphs you stated are sub species crosses not species ( which is a big difference IMO. ) my problem with bateaters is the fact that it basically started all these hybrid debates.

If you actually google bateater searching within ssnakeas you'll come across some of my first posts about this same subject. I was very uneducated about it and was on the other side of the fence.

**millertime89** · 01-27-12, 01:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by peterm15

I didn't want to quote your whole post.

Nothing wrong with anything you said. I assume the morphs you stated are sub species crosses not species ( which is a big difference IMO. ) my problem with bateaters is the fact that it basically started all these hybrid debates.

If you actually google bateater searching within ssnakeas you'll come across some of my first posts about this same subject. I was very uneducated about it and was on the other side of the fence.

I would have to do some more digging, but I believe you are correct, one locality boa had a desirable morph so it was crossed into more desirable locality and then the blood was diluted to the point that it was nearly pure, but not quite. You see it in IJ and Bredli Jags, as well as diamond x jungles and other morelia.

I looked for your old posts but didn't find anything. I didn't exactly look very hard either.

andybe18 · 01-27-12, 05:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by peterm15

I suggest you do some actual research on this subject before posting false statements like that.
Morphs are genetic deficiencies that can happen in any animal ( example albino PEOPLE) even blue eyes and blond hair ( which i have) are considered deficiencies and are recessive genes. What breeders do is breed specifically for that trait. Through INBREEDING not hybridization.

As for naturally occurring hybrids. It can happen, I just don’t see the need in spoiling the captive genetic pool with these animals. Unless the animal can breed with one of the same hybrid, there is no need for them. Eg corn x milk X corn x milk. It makes the situation a little better but still no need for it.

I suggest the same to you my friend - are you telling me that every single morph is a 100% pure form of that animal? It has happened and hence why I said SOME not all. A small some, but some all the same.

From vmsherp -
"This is a common reason for hybridizing captive reptiles. Combining two forms with attractive appearances to create a third intermediate form which may be still more uniquely attractive is a common goal. Many breeders also use hybridization as a means to introduce desired mutations into species not currently exhibiting them. One of the first projects along these lines was the use of albino Ruthven's Kingsnakes (Lampropeltis ruthveni) to introduce the albino gene to the closely related Gray Banded Kingsnake (L. alterna). "
have a read of that page - http://www.ssnakess.com/forums/newre...reply&p=673952

Not absolute proof, but a fair few people who disagree with you - Corn Snake Genome Project - CaptiveBred Reptile Forums, Reptile Classified, Forum

Rootbeer corns
Creamsicle Corns
Jungle Jag Carpets

Kingsnake - Woodland Park Zoo, Seattle, WA - interesting read - it's not quite so black and white as you would like to think.

http://shemer.mslib.huji.ac.il/disse.../001491028.pdf
Thamnophis - Sightings

You can not gurantee any snake, (especially colubrids it seems) is 100% pure - and you can not gurantee a wild caught morph is 100% pure form of that snake. Most morphs are from inbreeding - most, but not all.

Enough research? False statement?