Wild-caught vs. Captive-bred

[Herpin' Man]

There seems to be a popular opinion in the herp hobby lately, that collecting wild specimens is always wrong. It isn't. If the animal is of a sustainable species and population, and the individual collecting it is prepared to provide proper care, there is nothing wrong with legal and responsible collecting. They are no different from other wild resources, such as game and fish.
Many newcomers to the hobby seem to be unaware that captive breeding is a relatively new phenomena, and of course, all captive bred species originated with wild caught specimens.
One of the most obvious benefits of WC to the hobby is that it is necessary to bringing new species into the hobby. Of the thousands of species of reptile and amphibians known, only a tiny percentage of them are regularly captive bred.
Another benefit to the hobby is that wild collecting can bring in fresh genetics, to strengthen and/or diversify existing bloodlines. It is also beneficial to those working with "locality" animals.
A third benefit to collecting is that it helps make the connection, for the collector, between captive herps and nature- it puts them in context. Whether a seasoned hobbyist or a young person collecting their first toad to keep as a pet, the more connected we are to these animals in their natural environments, the more invested we will be in their conservation.

[Aaron_S]

Originally Posted by Herpin' Man

There seems to be a popular opinion in the herp hobby lately, that collecting wild specimens is always wrong. It isn't. If the animal is of a sustainable species and population, and the individual collecting it is prepared to provide proper care, there is nothing wrong with legal and responsible collecting. They are no different from other wild resources, such as game and fish.
Many newcomers to the hobby seem to be unaware that captive breeding is a relatively new phenomena, and of course, all captive bred species originated with wild caught specimens.
One of the most obvious benefits of WC to the hobby is that it is necessary to bringing new species into the hobby. Of the thousands of species of reptile and amphibians known, only a tiny percentage of them are regularly captive bred.
Another benefit to the hobby is that wild collecting can bring in fresh genetics, to strengthen and/or diversify existing bloodlines. It is also beneficial to those working with "locality" animals.
A third benefit to collecting is that it helps make the connection, for the collector, between captive herps and nature- it puts them in context. Whether a seasoned hobbyist or a young person collecting their first toad to keep as a pet, the more connected we are to these animals in their natural environments, the more invested we will be in their conservation.

I agree with a good portion you've written. I also disagree with some of it.

1. It isn't like other game and fish. Fish are regularly bred in massive quantities and lakes are stocked with them to keep populations up. Reptiles do not have this, at all, yet.

2. I agree with strengthening genetics when/where possible.

3. I do not agree with the connection aspect you mentioned. If you take these animals out of the wild and put them into a tank most people do not think to invest or conserve the area where they came from. In contrast, it will actually hurt that population. (This is how you go from a strong population in your first point to a dwindling one like so many species out there already)

I personally believe wild caught is fine in about 25% of situations. For anyone wanting a pet I believe there's so many captive animals readily available why go take one from the wild?

[Andy_G]

Originally Posted by Herpin' Man

There seems to be a popular opinion in the herp hobby lately, that collecting wild specimens is always wrong. It isn't. If the animal is of a sustainable species and population, and the individual collecting it is prepared to provide proper care, there is nothing wrong with legal and responsible collecting. They are no different from other wild resources, such as game and fish.
Many newcomers to the hobby seem to be unaware that captive breeding is a relatively new phenomena, and of course, all captive bred species originated with wild caught specimens.
One of the most obvious benefits of WC to the hobby is that it is necessary to bringing new species into the hobby. Of the thousands of species of reptile and amphibians known, only a tiny percentage of them are regularly captive bred.
Another benefit to the hobby is that wild collecting can bring in fresh genetics, to strengthen and/or diversify existing bloodlines. It is also beneficial to those working with "locality" animals.
A third benefit to collecting is that it helps make the connection, for the collector, between captive herps and nature- it puts them in context. Whether a seasoned hobbyist or a young person collecting their first toad to keep as a pet, the more connected we are to these animals in their natural environments, the more invested we will be in their conservation.

Figured i'd play a bit of devil's advocate today. Nothing is meant by my post other than to stimulate this conversation from a different perspective.

I would propose that your statements bring more/different questions rather than definitive answers.

- Do we NEED to bring new species into the hobby? Especially when 99% of keepers generally keep and reproduce those of which are extremely common and already overbred in captivity? A lot of species that aren't kept as common are often more complex and therefore die due to their needs either not being met, or having needs that are impossible for us to meet, either short or long term. This has no benefit for anyone or anything other than us.

-As far as helping to make a connection...I'm not totally sure on that when so many keepers are keeping their animals on paper towels in bare minimalistic setups and powerfeeding their animals to breed and make profit. It may create interest in something that may have been previously overlooked or ignored...but sometimes the "connection" just isn't made as often as we would hope for. I'd propose that an extremely small percentage of people who at first weren't interested in conservation of any type decided to pick up an interest in it after beginning to keep reptiles.

- If they are no different from other wild resources, and many resources-
whether that would be animals, plants, or other resources- are dwindling/becoming extinct/extirpated on a global level (perhaps not so much at a local level - at least not yet), aside from accredited breeding and reintroduction/ecological/zoological programs, just exactly what are the long term benefits of wild collecting? We do have the short term reward of self-serving our own interests and desires, but what exactly would the benefit to a wild population of a threatened species be if "Bob Smith" produced a bunch of hatchlings in his basement to sell to other keepers?

I love conversations like this. Great posts.

[Roman]

This is not a simple “Yes” or “No” question. In general, we should try to restrict ourselves to CB animals. If the species is bred in large (enough) numbers it makes no sense to catch them in the wild if you can get a CB animal for a small amount of money.

If a CB reptile is necessarily healthier than a WC reptile is at least questionable in some cases. Of course you usually don’t have the internal and external parasites in a CB animal you routinely have to treat in WC animals, sometimes dehydration is also a major concern for fresh imports. However, if you look at the inbreeding over generations in most of the popular morphs like ball pythons, corn snakes, bearded dragons, leopard geckos etc. the gene pool is severely reduced and in some cases we already have health issues resulting from this.

Originally Posted by Herpin' Man

[...]
Many newcomers to the hobby seem to be unaware that captive breeding is a relatively new phenomena, and of course, all captive bred species originated with wild caught specimens.
[...]

I don’t think that this is such a new phenomena, I have some newsletters from the German Herpetological Society (DGHT) form the mid 1980th with literally hundreds of adds for reptiles, most of them CB.

There are some valid arguments for keeping WC animals. (Re-)Introducing new species into the hobby is one of them, to broaden the variety of available species. Another might be to introduce some new bloodlines into existing CB stock to improve the gene pole again and reduce the amount of genetic deficiencies. Establishing breeding projects for reptiles from known localities to help preserve them in human care (not necessarily to reintroduce them into the wild later, for this you would have to have high standards to make sure that animals brought back into their habitat would not carry new pathogens). If you think at the mish mash we have with Boa constrictor / imperator where probably 99% of the available snakes are mixes from all over their distribution and next to nobody have really pure BCC or Bi any longer.

Of course getting a WC animal is nothing a new keeper should try, there is no reason why somebody shouldn’t start with one of the established CB “beginner reptiles”. But if somebody with some experience starts to keep not so well known species and starts with WC animals we might get some insights into how to provide good husbandry for them and probably can even learn how to keep the “established” animals better. What we need are better ways to communicate these advances in husbandry and probably an open mind for out-of-the-box thinking.

[eminart]

Originally Posted by Herpin' Man

There seems to be a popular opinion in the herp hobby lately, that collecting wild specimens is always wrong. It isn't. If the animal is of a sustainable species and population, and the individual collecting it is prepared to provide proper care, there is nothing wrong with legal and responsible collecting. They are no different from other wild resources, such as game and fish.
Many newcomers to the hobby seem to be unaware that captive breeding is a relatively new phenomena, and of course, all captive bred species originated with wild caught specimens.
One of the most obvious benefits of WC to the hobby is that it is necessary to bringing new species into the hobby. Of the thousands of species of reptile and amphibians known, only a tiny percentage of them are regularly captive bred.
Another benefit to the hobby is that wild collecting can bring in fresh genetics, to strengthen and/or diversify existing bloodlines. It is also beneficial to those working with "locality" animals.
A third benefit to collecting is that it helps make the connection, for the collector, between captive herps and nature- it puts them in context. Whether a seasoned hobbyist or a young person collecting their first toad to keep as a pet, the more connected we are to these animals in their natural environments, the more invested we will be in their conservation.

I agree with this. I think there's a disconnect with most younger people and any sort of hunting/collecting from the wild. Managed correctly, it's perfectly sustainable. I know people are going to jump on the "managed correctly" bit, but, in the US, our conservation/game and fish operations have been a massive success.

[craigafrechette]

Originally Posted by eminart

I agree with this. I think there's a disconnect with most younger people and any sort of hunting/collecting from the wild. Managed correctly, it's perfectly sustainable. I know people are going to jump on the "managed correctly" bit, but, in the US, our conservation/game and fish operations have been a massive success.

Yeah, it's actually sad in my opinion. Kids don't do much anymore unless it's in front of a TV, computer, tablet, phone, video game...

There must be 12-15 kids in my immediate neighborhood, I NEVER see any of them playing outside. I practically lived outside as a kid. My mother always had trouble getting me inside before the street lights came on.
The times, they are a changing...