Death by our Savior

[KORBIN5895]

This is prompted by a post I saw on Facebook today that was posted by a long time member on here.

They were talking about why the royal market is all over the place price wise. It is also something I have been thinking a lot about lately.

So many people proclaim that this recent and rapid influx into our hobby is a great thing. All these new people will buy from the breeders, they will educate the masses and they will also bolster our numbers and stop these ridiculous bans.

I am glad we have optimists left in this world but it's time to start listening to us realists.

A lot of these new people are entering the hobby for all of the wrong reasons. I can't begin to count the people that I have seen buy their first snake and with in weeks are purchasing there breeding groups. It is these types of people that crash the market. All they see ate dollar signs. They purchase whatever they can and throw them together thinking. " These will hatch and I'll have all of this e tea money......." What they fail to realize is that these babies don't all sell right away, let alone all survive. What tends to happen if they get a successful clutch they have a hard time selling the babies well below market price which then drops the market price.

Here is an example I had first hand experience with. I sold a guy a pair of bumble bees het hypo. His goal was to produce hypo super pastel spiders ( I haven't two sweet clues what the name will be) . He plans on selling these for $600-$800 "to move them fast"

The second problem I am seeing is that maybe 1 of 20 new keepers have any desire to actually listen and learn. Way to many new keepers are of the mindset that they have a snake and have all the answers because they read a car sheet once. I am sorry to burst you bubble but I do not want the ignorant educating the ignorant. There is a veery wise saying that says "When the blind lead the blind they all fall in the ditch." I can take you to a forum that is the epitome of this statement. I saw new members join with sick and dying animals and all of the members congratulate then on their new pet and tell them they were doing an amazing thing the way they took care of it.

Finally we need to just look back at the petition USARK put out during the lacy act. They were looking for a certain amount of signatures and they fell miserably short. These knew people are coming to fight the cause like those of us that have been in this for 10-15 years. Why not? They have no blood, sweat or tears in this. They have a couple hundred buck wrapped up in this from their pet store purchase past week. What do they really care about the hobby?

Believe it or not I am not against new people. What I am really disappointed in are those of us that have been around yet are not mentoring like we should. The real disconnect is the "old boys" mentality. Yes, I understand the vast majority of fresh blood won't ever amount to much. Yes these ignorant fools are annoying as hell. Yes, I wish we could ban people for being stupid. BUT what about the good ones we let slip through because we have stopped caring ? What about the ones that want to legitimately learn? That is where we are dropping the ball.

[Zoo Nanny]

Korbin for one so young you are wise beyond your years. Very well said.

[KORBIN5895]

Korbin for one so young you are wise beyond your years. Very well said.

Ha! I'm one of the biggest offenders!

[Kid Boa]

Its hard to make a comment on this topic other then to say you are 100% correct Korbin.

I remember the day when I common Boa sold for around $200.00, now I see amateur breeders selling them for $30.00-$50.00 on Kijiji.

I REALLY wish people would selling their product at the going rate instead of just dumping them on the market. . . .

[wrecker45]

Wow we need a lot more people like Korbin

[Aaron_S]

So essentially the whole thing about mentoring and getting new people into the hobby is of the mentality to "throw poop at the wall and see what sticks".

I think it's the way to go. Recruit en masse and help educate those that wish to learn. Goes back to why I'm okay with BHB and their videos.

[Aaron_S]

Its hard to make a comment on this topic other then to say you are 100% correct Korbin.

I remember the day when I common Boa sold for around $200.00, now I see amateur breeders selling them for $30.00-$50.00 on Kijiji.

I REALLY wish people would selling their product at the going rate instead of just dumping them on the market. . . .

Things change though dude.

I remember when I used to get pictus geckos for $15 a piece (now breeders sell them for like $50 each!)

They go up and down as the market indicates. $200 was once an average price and then more people produced them. Making them more common, thus driving prices down.

Supply and demand.

Edit: Also, what you're essentially describing (everyone agreeing to a price and sticking to it) is price fixing. It's illegal.

[KORBIN5895]

Its hard to make a comment on this topic other then to say you are 100% correct Korbin.

I remember the day when I common Boa sold for around $200.00, now I see amateur breeders selling them for $30.00-$50.00 on Kijiji.

I REALLY wish people would selling their product at the going rate instead of just dumping them on the market. . . .

I missed out on a moonglow clutch this season because I removed my male too soon. Anyway the first moonglows I saw this season were selling for $700 either sex. When I was looking for a sunglow two seasons ago the moonglows were still selling for $2k and I was doing good to find a sunglow for $700.

[KORBIN5895]

So essentially the whole thing about mentoring and getting new people into the hobby is of the mentality to "throw poop at the wall and see what sticks".

I think it's the way to go. Recruit en masse and help educate those that wish to learn. Goes back to why I'm okay with BHB and their videos.

Actually I think mentoring would be a way better approach than some hokey web show filled with stupidity drawing them in. What I think would help us the most would be if we let passion bring them in.

Just imagine this, instead of 100 new people every week that we had to sift and sort what if we only had five that wanted to learn? Sigh, now that would be Nirvana!

[Aaron_S]

Actually I think mentoring would be a way better approach than some hokey web show filled with stupidity drawing them in. What I think would help us the most would be if we let passion bring them in.

Just imagine this, instead of 100 new people every week that we had to sift and sort what if we only had five that wanted to learn? Sigh, now that would be Nirvana!

Depends on what you're hoping to achieve. If you want the industry to continue to run then the 100 need to be brought in. Otherwise a lot of people will all of a sudden complain about not being able to find anything and wish there were more breeders...

Also, I watched a couple episodes today. Honestly, no bites or anything and just pure passion from Brian.

[MDT]

Dude...very well stated.

[Zoo Nanny]

Ha! I'm one of the biggest offenders!
Maybe so but at least you recognize it and are willing to try to mentor others. I think those that are truely passionate will stay regardless of what is said. There are a quite a few folks here with an amazing amount of knowledge in their particular species preference. I enjoy reading their threads even though I don't participate, I read and learn. There is a ton of education available here, more than other sites I have seen, you just have to want to learn.

[Terranaut]

I talked to Rob Conrad about this at the CRBE. His concern was for all of the unwanted snakes that do not sell. What happens to them? I was in awe at the sheer volume of royals at the expo. Crazy.

[Mikoh4792]

Deleted, stupid question.

[KORBIN5895]

I talked to Rob Conrad about this at the CRBE. His concern was for all of the unwanted snakes that do not sell. What happens to them? I was in awe at the sheer volume of royals at the expo. Crazy.

Well if I ever get my bhp I will gladly take donations.. ..

Deleted, stupid question.

No such thing ;)

[Mikoh4792]

No such thing ;)

lol I was just gonna ask what you guys thought about having some form of restriction on breeding, since it's becoming a problem in the market. Maybe some permits, licenses...etc?

[marvelfreak]

All i have to say is the one that truly want to learn will seek out the knowledge. You would not believe how many people have PM me asking questions. I have can't count how many people i help with questions mostly on Anacondas, Dumeril Boas and White Lipped Python. Which i don't mind at all. It use to be i would tell them to make a post and i answered their question so everyone could learn from it but i found if i help them thought pm they seem to ask more questions which is always a good thing.

[KORBIN5895]

lol I was just gonna ask what you guys thought about having some form of restriction on breeding, since it's becoming a problem in the market. Maybe some permits, licenses...etc?

Slippery slope. New Brunswick has a law that if you have more than 7 of the same species you need a permit.

[MDT]

lol I was just gonna ask what you guys thought about having some form of restriction on breeding, since it's becoming a problem in the market. Maybe some permits, licenses...etc?

Free market economy? Let the demand set the prices. Not "making" enough?Find another widget to sell.

Seriously, is your livelihood 100% dependent on you selling your product (herps), or do you LOVE reptiles, are fortunate enough to breed them and make a little cash on the side? Neither answer is wrong. It depends on which side of the fence you are on.

I am not a fan of regulations. As a business owner, regulations are the debil.

[Robin.M]

Well said dude. You and I seem to be cut from the same cloth.

Aaron, you are my new bestie (you and Darryl of course), but SnakebytesTV does NOTHING positive for our community. It encourages uneducated kids and adults to start keeping snakes because they are "cool and different, and you can make millions of dollars breeding them". Not to mention they perform stupid skits endangering the lives of their snakes, and taunting them to strike thus stressing them out completely, and also keep Reticulated Pythons and Burmese Pythons in small drawers that they can't even escape their own feces and urine.

They are disgusting filth, and I'm ashamed to say they share the same passion as me.

Relating to the large influx of new keepers as of late into reptile keeping. Most of this influx has nothing to do with passion, and everything to do with money. People start keeping snakes, err, ball pythons, and then 2 months later they have 80 of them and they are looking at "Getting into breeding".

The passion is leaving our community.

Rob

[Aaron_S]

Well said dude. You and I seem to be cut from the same cloth.

Aaron, you are my new bestie (you and Darryl of course), but SnakebytesTV does NOTHING positive for our community. It encourages uneducated kids and adults to start keeping snakes because they are "cool and different, and you can make millions of dollars breeding them". Not to mention they perform stupid skits endangering the lives of their snakes, and taunting them to strike thus stressing them out completely, and also keep Reticulated Pythons and Burmese Pythons in small drawers that they can't even escape their own feces and urine.

They are disgusting filth, and I'm ashamed to say they share the same passion as me.

Relating to the large influx of new keepers as of late into reptile keeping. Most of this influx has nothing to do with passion, and everything to do with money. People start keeping snakes, err, ball pythons, and then 2 months later they have 80 of them and they are looking at "Getting into breeding".

The passion is leaving our community.

Rob

I'm forever the optimist Rob.

All it takes is one person to see an animal he shows on the show (not all are morphs, just a lot are) and other species when he's on the road. I think his passion is or can be infectious.

I have seen those skits and they aren't very good. I did watch a handful of videos today and only once did I see something stupid like that. They seemed to have slowed it down over the years which is a good thing.

However, with all that said, I do agree with you that a lot of new people do come in and try to become the "next big breeder" but those are just the loud, open mouth breathers. Doesn't make it right or OK but there's going to be bad things and we see more of it because we're online and douche nozzles tend to be online.

I've also found over the years that some people do get in with the intent to become a breeder far too quick and they fail. The good news is that they usually bought a single animal and then got "addicted". They still had the want or desire and interest to own reptiles so even if they fail as a breeder, they usually find a true calling somewhere and either get cool geckos, a single snake again or go for frogs.

[franks]

Well said Kevin. I think you raise many valid concerns and points. The biggest thing that worries me (concerning ball pythons) is that the market is extremely incestuous. Nobody buys an expensive designer ball python unless it is an "investment" meaning they will breed it and try to make a profit. That profit is made by selling designer babies to someone else who buys only to breed and make a profit. The only real consumers are the manufacturers, and that does not seem like the most stable thing. This is partly responsible to the fluctuating prices. For instance, people once bought pastels for an investment, and now they are just a glorified normal for all intents and purposes.

That was my long-winded way of saying that I agree with you completely, and this has been an issue that I have been thinking about alot lately. I have been strongly considering disbanding my ball python projects, because I am starting to come to a place where I feel it is irresponsible of me to feed an already flooded market.

[franks]

I've also found over the years that some people do get in with the intent to become a breeder far too quick and they fail. The good news is that they usually bought a single animal and then got "addicted". They still had the want or desire and interest to own reptiles so even if they fail as a breeder, they usually find a true calling somewhere and either get cool geckos, a single snake again or go for frogs.

In my experience I have also found this to be true. Craigslist testifies to this.

[Snakesitter]

This is prompted by a post I saw on Facebook today that was posted by a long time member on here.

They were talking about why the royal market is all over the place price wise. It is also something I have been thinking a lot about lately.

So many people proclaim that this recent and rapid influx into our hobby is a great thing. All these new people will buy from the breeders, they will educate the masses and they will also bolster our numbers and stop these ridiculous bans.

I am glad we have optimists left in this world but it's time to start listening to us realists.

A lot of these new people are entering the hobby for all of the wrong reasons. I can't begin to count the people that I have seen buy their first snake and with in weeks are purchasing there breeding groups. It is these types of people that crash the market. All they see ate dollar signs. They purchase whatever they can and throw them together thinking. " These will hatch and I'll have all of this e tea money......." What they fail to realize is that these babies don't all sell right away, let alone all survive. What tends to happen if they get a successful clutch they have a hard time selling the babies well below market price which then drops the market price.

Here is an example I had first hand experience with. I sold a guy a pair of bumble bees het hypo. His goal was to produce hypo super pastel spiders ( I haven't two sweet clues what the name will be) . He plans on selling these for $600-$800 "to move them fast"

The second problem I am seeing is that maybe 1 of 20 new keepers have any desire to actually listen and learn. Way to many new keepers are of the mindset that they have a snake and have all the answers because they read a car sheet once. I am sorry to burst you bubble but I do not want the ignorant educating the ignorant. There is a veery wise saying that says "When the blind lead the blind they all fall in the ditch." I can take you to a forum that is the epitome of this statement. I saw new members join with sick and dying animals and all of the members congratulate then on their new pet and tell them they were doing an amazing thing the way they took care of it.

Finally we need to just look back at the petition USARK put out during the lacy act. They were looking for a certain amount of signatures and they fell miserably short. These knew people are coming to fight the cause like those of us that have been in this for 10-15 years. Why not? They have no blood, sweat or tears in this. They have a couple hundred buck wrapped up in this from their pet store purchase past week. What do they really care about the hobby?

Believe it or not I am not against new people. What I am really disappointed in are those of us that have been around yet are not mentoring like we should. The real disconnect is the "old boys" mentality. Yes, I understand the vast majority of fresh blood won't ever amount to much. Yes these ignorant fools are annoying as hell. Yes, I wish we could ban people for being stupid. BUT what about the good ones we let slip through because we have stopped caring ? What about the ones that want to legitimately learn? That is where we are dropping the ball.
Timely post, Korbin. I vended today at NARBC Anaheim, and saw the exact situation you speak of first-hand: endless fields of balls and boas, with new disciples lining up. And one show back, a competitor -- someone who had bred "by accident" in years past, this time deliberately, was vending by renting a third of a table from other vendors, and was selling eight-day old babies he/she had fed their first meal three days before the show.... One of his/her customers bought from this person, then came over to me to ask care questions, including how to make sure sure their new baby was healthy and disease free. (I answered, because I believe it the right thing to do.)

One of my standard speeches to customers now is the difference experience makes: those vendors who have raised animals since babies *before* breeding have far more knowledge and ability to support customers than those who buy breeding pairs right out of the gate. Customers actually seem to get it, too.


Well said.

[KORBIN5895]

That situation is one of the things that really bothers me Cliff. Eight days old? Hell that's not even shed yet. It's this type of irresponsibility ( also the vendor that split with him) that will cause us so much grief.

[warehouse13fan]

I'm in neutral territory in this topic......

[Chris72]

Its hard to make a comment on this topic other then to say you are 100% correct Korbin.

I remember the day when I common Boa sold for around $200.00, now I see amateur breeders selling them for $30.00-$50.00 on Kijiji.

I REALLY wish people would selling their product at the going rate instead of just dumping them on the market. . . .


Yes please..!

At the very least: those that want to sell a 1,200 snake for 800 should not list prices...just advertise as (all reasonable offers will be entertained). Those guys that look up pricing on Kingsnake then list at 15% less than the lowest price found might as well show up at my house and kick me in the face.

If they want to screw themselves...fine...just don't do it publicly.