Stage 3 (Dry Season)

[KORBIN5895]

Originally Posted by Pirarucu

If they will go and stay in the cool spot intentionally and voluntarily, even when conditions are not changed, why would one attempt to force the behavior?

Because some have a deep and well seated notion of how right their own intellect is. Besides as soon as he provides the link on how humans repair their DNA while fasting you will clearly see why it is so important to savs

[formica]

Originally Posted by Pirarucu

Here's my problem with what you are saying. Your decision is based entirely on your presumption that you need to force them to go and cool down. Why not simply provide an opportunity to cool down (burrows) and not mess with above ground conditions? While your response will, I'm sure, be about the need to trigger the behavior with an environmental change, I'd like to bring up a point you mentioned in the last thread this idea was discussed in.

Yes, I am assuming that it needs to be forced, you are absolutely right about that, that's the whole point - dont you think that maintaining a rainy season climate, 365 days a year, for the whole of life, is forcing a Sav to deal with an unusual climate? They have not evolved to be at full metabolic rate day in day out - metabolism itself is a factor in longevity, fast metabolism = short life, thats basic biology, for all animals...and Monitors have some of the fastest metabolisms of all reptiles, I believe that forcing them to be at peak metabolism 365 days a year, may not be as healthy as it seems.

For sure I could wait until I have kept a few monitors before trying this, but I do believe that there may be some detrimental effects in forcing their metabolism to be at full whack for their whole lives, so why would I put even one monitor thru that? There is no data on the subject, and the one person on this thread who says they have done it, is not willing to share the information about it - I find it strange that, that same person who clearly had the same questions in mind, as I have now, is so willing to simply turn it into a personal little war.

Originally Posted by Pirarucu

If they will go and stay in the cool spot intentionally and voluntarily, even when conditions are not changed, why would one attempt to force the behavior?

Not quite what I said, DB's observations where, at the end of rainy season, they reducing their food and activity, as it cools down, i've already done a ''cool season''


Last minute work has delayed my plans now, hopefully off to see the herp vet next week

[murrindindi]

Originally Posted by formica

Yes, I am assuming that it needs to be forced, you are absolutely right about that, that's the whole point - dont you think that maintaining a rainy season climate, 365 days a year, for the whole of life, is forcing a Sav to deal with an unusual climate? They have not evolved to be at full metabolic rate day in day out, I believe that forcing them to be at peak metabolism 365 days a year, may not be as healthy as it seems.

I find it strange that, that same person who clearly had the same questions in mind, as I have now, is so willing to simply turn it into a personal little war.

Where have you got the notion that providing "wet season" conditions 365 days a year forces the animal to operate at "peak metabolism" for the entire time (24 hours per day)??
Does you monitor not have rest periods each and every day where it`s metabolism slows? In fact in a period of 24 hours they are resting more than they are active (metabolism is lowered).
These "ideas" have been doing the rounds for years; "it`s unhealthy, they'll wear themselves out" (not achieve their potential life spans)?
Can you show some evidence (please)!

[formica]

Originally Posted by murrindindi

Where have you got the notion that providing "wet season" conditions 365 days a year forces the animal to operate at "peak metabolism" for the entire time (24 hours per day)??
Does you monitor not have rest periods each and every day where it`s metabolism slows? In fact in a period of 24 hours they are resting more than they are active (metabolism is lowered).
These "ideas" have been doing the rounds for years; "it`s unhealthy, they'll wear themselves out" (not achieve their potential life spans)?
Can you show some evidence (please)!

I would not insult your intelligence by explaining how temperature effects metabolism.

If you want to present evidence to show that I am wrong, then go for it - I have already presented my evidence, and am not going to indulge you any more with this circular arguing, its pretty tedious.

[murrindindi]

Originally Posted by formica

I would not insult your intelligence by explaining how temperature effects metabolism.

If you want to present evidence to show that I am wrong, then go for it - I have already presented my evidence, and am not going to indulge you any more with this circular arguing, its pretty tedious.

Evidence of what concerning captive Varanids???

[formica]

Originally Posted by murrindindi

Evidence of what concerning captive Varanids???

that the cool and dry seasons are not physiologically important, and do not in any way play an important role in their natural life cycle, quality of life and over all health - in those Varanids which have evolved to live with such cycles.

[mdfmonitor]

I've not cooled mine yet because it's too warm at the mo, i shall be when the bad weather hits.

The reason you cool them is when they've been growing at full pelt all summer it's a good idea to slow them down for a month or two, but you don't have to!

In my books 30" of growth over the last 8 months i think he's due for a slow down, but you still leave the basking lights on & they still require areas of different levels of humility, we don't have cages big enough to give a dry season effectively.

You should have different levels of heat / humidity with-in your cage, the idea is to let them choose where they want to be.

So dry season should be left for the one's in the wild, maybe a cooling off season yes!

[Terranaut]

I do not have a monitor and never have so I will not comment on this husbandry debate but I will say this.....
We have captive animals living in small environments. How closely should we mimick nature? Do we go so far as to introduce them to environmental pitfalls as well? Do we give them diseases known to affect their wild counterparts? Should we infect them with ticks or starve them a while to simulate real world environments? Perhaps we should have natural predators chase them around in their enclosures?
This all sounds ludicrous for a reason. We may think we can recreate their natural environment but unless we add all the bad crap too we are really just providing our interpretation of nature. How far we take it is up to the individual. I do have a question....who owns the oldest captive monitor and how do they keep it? Personally when and if I do get a monitor this would be my guide and not nature.

[formica]

Originally Posted by Terranaut

I do not have a monitor and never have so I will not comment on this husbandry debate but I will say this.....
We have captive animals living in small environments. How closely should we mimick nature? Do we go so far as to introduce them to environmental pitfalls as well? Do we give them diseases known to affect their wild counterparts? Should we infect them with ticks or starve them a while to simulate real world environments? Perhaps we should have natural predators chase them around in their enclosures?
This all sounds ludicrous for a reason. We may think we can recreate their natural environment but unless we add all the bad crap too we are really just providing our interpretation of nature. How far we take it is up to the individual. I do have a question....who owns the oldest captive monitor and how do they keep it? Personally when and if I do get a monitor this would be my guide and not nature.

valid questions

most of which I would say, no, those things should not be introduced

that said, one of them, your last question regarding natural predators, is actually part of a few different studies regarding enrichment of monitor enclosures, not using actual predators, but using rival monitors/other predators scents, pieces of fur, faeces, etc, to encourage different behaviors - not simply to study the behavior, but as part of enrichment of its environment

i'll try find the study link if you are interested in reading it, was quite interesting. I really should save these bookmarks for easy access

[infernalis]

I wish I could find an Eagle or a baboon to put in my enclosure.

[KORBIN5895]

Am I the only one noticing the lack of actual proof...... Again.

[formica]

Originally Posted by infernalis

I wish I could find an Eagle or a baboon to put in my enclosure.

loooking to build some kind of Tardis enclosure?

Originally Posted by KORBIN5895

Am I the only one noticing the lack of actual proof...... Again.

you are aware that proof occurs after testing, yes? Not before.

the only person who claims to have tested this already, is not willing to provide their results, which indicates to me that their test was either significantly different to what I am doing, or that the cause and effect where not easily correlated after it was carried out.

hopefully they will post their results tho, i'm sure I am not the only person interested in reading about it.

I would also suggest that if someone who is label an expert by their peers, would carry this kind of test out, perhaps I am not talking as much nonsense as is being claimed

[Terranaut]

Originally Posted by infernalis

I wish I could find an Eagle or a baboon to put in my enclosure.

Don't worry Wayne. ....I have spares



Seriously though...who has the oldest captive Sav right now?

[formica]

Originally Posted by Terranaut

Seriously though...who has the oldest captive Sav right now?

and how old is it?

[infernalis]

Originally Posted by Terranaut

Seriously though...who has the oldest captive Sav right now?

I know of one that is seven years old, and still walks tall with a proud strut like my animals. The coolest part, the owner does not even think he's done anything special.... just take care of his lizard.

I hear some claims of 10 year old animals, but no proof.