Hands-on handling, positive and negative experience question

[formica]

Originally Posted by infernalis

Oh, we mauled and handled Chomper all the time.

He was "calm" (lethargic) and paid for it with his life.

Hence why I went fill 180 this time. (opposite)

did he show interest in you when you where not handling him? I mean, did he come to you when you where the near the enclosure, or did he actively avoid contact unless you forced it on him?

I'm wondering if it is possible to have the best of both worlds, proper temperatures, but more interaction - but not if it is going to instill a persistent fear that will reduce its quality of life

[formica]

Originally Posted by varanus_mad

Hands on taming is a big no no for me... Evey varanid I've held that's been brought up that way it's heartbeat is going ten to the dozen.

Keep at it'll come round I suspect it's initial reaction was part of the settling process.

the monitors you are referring to, where they your own? if so did you raise them from hatchlings, or did handling start at adulthood? if they where not your own, could the heartbeat also be a reaction to an unknown situation/handler?



i've no plan to switch tactics at this time, just trying to understand them better

[varanus_mad]

Originally Posted by formica

the monitors you are referring to, where they your own? if so did you raise them from hatchlings, or did handling start at adulthood? if they where not your own, could the heartbeat also be a reaction to an unknown situation/handler?



i've no plan to switch tactics at this time, just trying to understand them better

A few adults I purchased of other keepers and a few kept by other keepers, monitors I've raised from hatchling I've done hands off with.

[V87]

Tried both methods

And I would say depends on the individual monitor in question and the sp and wether they are cb or wc or ltc ...

If u have a bold individual sp they may not need any force handling

My male green tree cb would regularly jump out into me as soon as I opened the viv door and not for food but for a look around and would let me handle him ... He would walk into my hand and allow handling ....

My Bosc male wc would walk out of his viv all the time allow handling and run up my body for food with no hesitation .... Show no fear and no aggression to anyone or anything .....

My male argus cb would hate any handling of any sort most of the time .... There was a few days he would allow it for cleaning out purposes and baths he would hiss and tail whip for England so I never forced the point of trying to handle him as he clearly wasn't comfortable ...

My green tree female wc was skittish as hell wen I first received her other than the fact she was near death she still choose to run away even when she was near deaths door so I left her completely hands off would only feed her and do daily routine .... I would barely look at her it was that bad ... But and a big but after a while say 5 months after she was back to health she would occasionally jump out into me ... Never would allow my hand to hold her but she would allow me to touch her and she was hesitant to say the least and very wary but she was tolerant in the end ....

My female ackie .... Ltc hated me with a passion and I mean a passion she was a bold as brass but as soon as my hand was within 1ft of her attack attack attack ... Kill kill kill ... Even when cleaning or spraying she would just bite again so after this I never forced the point of handling because she quite obviously hated my hands lol ... I never let her out of the viv because she was so small I would lose her ....

My rescue Nile wc .... Was fairly tractable from the beginning and I put this down to his ill health ... But even as he got back to health and gained size and weight he was a good boy unless it was feed day then he was a different kettle of fish he wanted blood no matter who's is was ..... I never forced this guy into handling either he just wanted out and onto me bless him

My quince wc ..... Calm as anything will not eat in front if me but the few times I have had him out to check on his progress his heart rate has not been elevated and will happily sit in my hand without fear of movement .... I am most surprised with this as he is wc and tiny but everyday he surprises me with his bold behaviour again I will say he is a secretive eater


My method is leave em alone ... Leave em alone ... Then slowly try tong feeding and walking them into ur arm or ur hand ....

Then go from there .... It's all slowly slowly catchy monkey ...

I would never chase them around the viv ... Never approach from above .... Never remove then from their hides ....

Each monitor is an individual and should b dealt with accordingly .... A settle period wether it 6 months to 2 years is not a lot to ask to judge or see wether ur monitor will become tractable or tolerant of ur handling or interaction ....
I've handled lots of monis some that others wouldn't put there hand in with but always found my techniques to work ...
These are my experiences hope it helps in some way

[nepoez]

Originally Posted by infernalis

Bazinga!

Good timing to share this, several evenings ago I was feeding my lizards, as per the usual, Littlefoot jumped out onto the floor to attack the plate of food. He noticed a crack in the door (it was not fully closed) and bolted full speed, before I could even react or flinch, he was down the hallway.

I had to chase him down, corner him and forcefully place him back in the cage and close the door.

Ever since then, at the first sight of me, he vanishes down a hole and won't come back out.

The one forced grab up has set me back on trust quite a bit.

man that suck! That's why when my sav scraped his head, I decided to not do anything to his woud right away to see if it heals on its own.. fortunately it healed and I didn't have to cause him to think I'm hurting him and end up hating me ...

[mdfmonitor]

I'm quite happy to watch thier behaviour!!

nothing like throwing a box of crickets in before they wake & look later that night to see the cork bark scattered all over the place.

treat them right & they'll come round eventually.

[BH Varanus]

Originally Posted by formica

So i've been following the hands-off method since getting my Sav, he'll happily perch on my arm and accept food, but still whips, and has even had a few goes at biting me recently, if I make the slightest movement, so I'm thinking about changing tactics - mainly because, if anything, he has become less trusting of me. for the first few weeks, I was able to pick him up when needed, without much fuss, the less i interacted with him, the less willing he seemed to be to put up with this, the last time i picked him up, having emlpoyed the hands off method for a while, I got a hand full of poop, its been a good few months since I tried anything beyond holding my arm out for him to climb and eat off

before people jump on me, I am fully aware of all the reasons behind the hands off method, its why I decieded to follow the method, we dont need to go over all that.

Changing tactic isnt something I am going to do today, tomorrow or even next month, its something I want to look into a little more - it seems that although not recommended by some, with reasonable assumptions to back it up, it certainly does give good results for some people - lets leave aside the issue of low basking tempretures, because for my Sav that will never been a concern.

The reason I am thinking about this, is because either it will work, and I'll end up with a Sav who will tolerate handling allot better, or it wont work, and we'll have the same relationship we have anyway, so I think its worth a shot, before he/she gets to big to even contemplate it.


So i'd love to hear peoples experiences using the hands-on method, as is used for other reptiles with great success - have you found it helped, or did it make your Sav less trusting? what was your method, how long did you try it for, and any other info you think might be of relevance, feel free to comment!




( Those with strong opinions on why this should not be done, please try to refrain from bashing people over their practices, both sides of the discussion are just as valid as the other, we should not try suppress the experiences of other people because they do not support our own opinions

I am inclined to believe that hands on can work for some Savs, just as it works for many snakes, and equally, for some snakes it will never work, polarizing the discussion wont really produce anything useful )

try manning techniques used for raptors it worked with my female ornate who was the equivalent of a four legged barracuda when i adopted her at 3 years old. I also use a cooling method , but don't advise it for novice owners (not implying you're a novice). The cooling method has to be spot on ( for obvious medical reasons and i only used it once a week on a red level psycho water monitor I had years ago. It worked pretty well and i followed it up with 'manning.' for the record i only handle my varanus after these steps were completed during enclosure maintenance, vet visits are when they bother me..lol
as far as duration of use of these these techniques they took eight weeks and only used them on adopted adults.

[V87]

Originally Posted by BH Varanus

try manning techniques used for raptors it worked with my female ornate who was the equivalent of a four legged barracuda when i adopted her at 3 years old. I also use a cooling method , but don't advise it for novice owners (not implying you're a novice). The cooling method has to be spot on ( for obvious medical reasons and i only used it once a week on a red level psycho water monitor I had years ago. It worked pretty well and i followed it up with 'manning.' for the record i only handle my varanus after these steps were completed during enclosure maintenance, vet visits are when they bother me..lol
as far as duration of use of these these techniques they took eight weeks and only used them on adopted adults.

Can u explain the cooling technique u speak of and what it consists of other than the obvious ?

[mdfmonitor]

many keepers use the cooling method full time!!

they are just as interesting to watch!! if they come round to handling all the better.

[formica]

I think the ''manning'' method, is what I was referring to as hands-on? - a bit more reading suggests its less about hands on, and just being in the same environment for long periods of time - but with falconry they also practice sleep deprivation, which seems to me excessive stress, but obviously it does work for Falcons - the website I was reading however, did note that some Falcons would develop problematic phobias of random things, a little concerning for dealing with one animal, perhaps not for several where the odds are reduced, a major concern for a pet tho!

cooling method I assume is reducing their available temperatures to make them more sluggish and less aggressive (interestingly thats also a technique I also use when attempting to combine unrelated queens into a single ant colony, cool them to <8C, leave them for 48hrs, and after that they behave as if they are related - if you put a new queen into a colony without this process, it'll almost certainly be killed)

Is there any info on the cooling method? I'm wondering if it would be most appropriately tested during ''cool season'', which my Sav is just gearing up for with reduction in basking times and ambient temps (based on the method used in the biawk artical, dont remember which issue)

[Pareeeee]

I guess I will never own a monitor, even though they are fascinating, because I couldn't bear having a pet I couldn't handle. (fish are the only exception to this rule)

Good luck with yours!

[BH Varanus]

Originally Posted by V87

Can u explain the cooling technique u speak of and what it consists of other than the obvious ?

Cooling technique (It’s annoyingly involved but this is the best way for me to share how I do it)

honestly I don’t recommend cooling most monitors just need time. most of my varanus were all adoptions that had aggression issues and were wild caught.
I don't usually have to do it after the first four months and its done biweekly depending on med checks I do not use this as a tool for taming just health checks. allot of keeper frown upon it,but to each his or her own.

I determine the preferred optimum temperature range. I try to determine this based on the highs and lows of the native country of the individual species. The problem I ran into with my ornate is the wide distribution of the countries in the African rainforest. It forced me to grab historical data and average it according to season. much easier with my water monitors that I've cared for. For a week I took temperature readings with a heat gun and thermometer (it was hell getting a reading…lol). I averaged the temps of when my monitor left the hide to bask on an (empty stomach) and when it left the hide (empty stomach) and no I did not starve my monitor. These numbers ranged from 63 to 70. I then Turned off my ambient air support devices and the only source of heat for the week was the UV and UVB basking lights because as we all know their heliophilic/heliothermic blah blah blah. The temp of the cage was 65 degrees with humidity maintained at 75 percent. Anyway, I noticed she was lethargic around this temp so the next morning very early I took three 1 gallon buckets of water that I froze in a deep freezer overnight and placed them in her cage a 8x4x4. The temp dropped to 50 after 2 .5 hours I than proceeded to take her body temp which was 14 degrees Celcius. Its been documented that 5 degrees Celsius is dangerous or fatal for reptiles so I felt staying at an estimated 14. In addition, a reptiles body does not alwwwwwwways reflect the actual ambient temperature due to obvious metabolic processes and muscle movement blah blah. After doing this she did hiss but it allowed me 15 non-violent minutes of time to examine her or if going to the vet. However during vet visit commutes I would placed the car AC at 70 to keep her maintained. This process I feel is a temporary fix and is not a good long term practice and is dangerous if done too long. but I felt it was necessary so I could handle what is now a manageable varanus ( depending on her mood..lol) . I feel its all about knowing your temp ranges and your monitor down to the exact degree. Luckily now I only cool her for her annual vet visit.

[BH Varanus]

Originally Posted by formica

I think the ''manning'' method, is what I was referring to as hands-on? - a bit more reading suggests its less about hands on, and just being in the same environment for long periods of time - but with falconry they also practice sleep deprivation, which seems to me excessive stress, but obviously it does work for Falcons - the website I was reading however, did note that some Falcons would develop problematic phobias of random things, a little concerning for dealing with one animal, perhaps not for several where the odds are reduced, a major concern for a pet tho!

cooling method I assume is reducing their available temperatures to make them more sluggish and less aggressive (interestingly thats also a technique I also use when attempting to combine unrelated queens into a single ant colony, cool them to <8C, leave them for 48hrs, and after that they behave as if they are related - if you put a new queen into a colony without this process, it'll almost certainly be killed)

Is there any info on the cooling method? I'm wondering if it would be most appropriately tested during ''cool season'', which my Sav is just gearing up for with reduction in basking times and ambient temps (based on the method used in the biawk artical, dont remember which issue)

Ok so with the manning I’ve used it on two water monitors one juvi and sub adult with aggression issues and my current female ornate. The water monitors (wild caught) took to it better than the ornate which took a couple more weeks due to their naturally more skiddish behavior and the fact that humans are not historically a source of food or in their direct environment given the dense habitat of the west African rainforest (we can argue all day on that being a factor). The water monitors on the other hand have encountered humans more frequently and from my personal research seem to tolerate our presence more or less.
We all know that monitors have a have displayed evidence for association learning. With just being in their environment I felt that the monitor whether aggressive are not began to comprehend that I was a fixture and source of food, and interaction would provide a positive outcome? Basically I provide recurring environmental events and feeding practices which increases the varanus’s response threshold to me. In other words my focus was to decrease the sensitivity over time Also the fact that monitors all have individual personalities must be put into account.

I felt that avain behavior vs. varanus behavior is not similar enough to employ all of the tactics that manning suggests.. Although similar, stress behavior is displayed like flight, hissing, biting, quick head movements, panting, etc. and that’s why it appealed to me. I did not find it at all necessary to employ the tactics of starvation, isolation unless (quarantining for illness) , sleep deprivation, etc.
When it came to employing manning I simply used it as a frame work to better approach unwanted behaviors when my varanus was being exposed to different things. The manning FRAMEWORK provided a heavily researched method because we all know that varanus keeping is an art form and just recently became a scientific phenomenon as opposed to falconry among other things is well established. The counter-conditioning phase is not considered manning but is the second phase of the process its basically what we all practice when using tongs to feed our monitor with a slight twist. its easier to use this techniques with water monitors ( they’re a bit braver). ornates respond better to the first part of manning and less to the the counter – conditioning part. When training our varanus’s we understand quickly that we must establish a mutual bond based on respect, food, ALLOT of patience and trust. I don’t suggest manning for every monitor or keeper unless you feel like a couple headaches.

[formica]

very interesting, thanks for taking the time to write that up!

[BH Varanus]

Originally Posted by formica

very interesting, thanks for taking the time to write that up!

no problem, hope my psycho babble helped at least a little or at least sparked an idea...lol