I hate this.. - Page 2

Kayla90 · 03-22-12, 10:11 AM

I didn't say they couldn't digest them. I said that give the wrong environment it's harder for them to do so. Sav's in the wild have exactly what they need to do so... but when you have sav in captivity kept at about snake temps or lower??

Bradyloach · 03-22-12, 10:18 AM

My sav you mean? Basking temp 135-143F. Cool side temp is 78. The coolest in the borrow I've ever recorded was 68 that was way down at night. Humitdy is always 50-68% but it's because my enclosure sucks. A 5x2 deffintly getting an 8x4 in a couple weeks

Kayla90 · 03-22-12, 10:20 AM

No Brady. This is not personal at all. This is about the whole of a species not an individual person.

Bradyloach · 03-22-12, 10:30 AM

Oh haha, i will be posting a huge research project my girlfriend did on savannah monitors. It has a lot of nutritional information

mattchibi · 03-22-12, 11:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CDN_Blood

Unfortunately, it's all too easy to be a terrible keeper these days. The current attitude towards herps these days is downright disgraceful, on the whole. There are very few truly dedicated and knowledgable keepers out there, and those who don't fall into that category are spreading their "knowledge" around so fast that it's impossible to stop.

I've met *so* many people who think they're experts in this or that aspect of herpetoculture, yet as far as I'm concerned, they're know-nothing know-it-alls. I've seen it more times than I can count.

A prime example are a few folks in my area who've attached themselves to a local reptile 'rescue', which is actually a horror show in disguise, yet everyone who works there thinks that parasites, disease, minimalistic husbandry and frequently losing animals is all part of everyday life with reptiles. They'll say "I'm a professional. I have X years experience", but if you ask them how many animals have died under their care, the truth of the matter becomes painfully obvious and it's like they don't seem to learn anything from it all. It's all just a matter of routine to them.

There is certainly no shortage of quality information out there for anyone with the desire to learn it, but most simply can't be bothered because to them these animals are so readily available that they'll just go out and get another to replace the one that died. It's far too easy to do when you consider living animals to be disposable items that can be picked-up just about anywhere.

I've turned-down many calls for help from people who I know are repeat offenders, and as much as it pains me to see their animals suffer and inevitably die due to their steadfast unwillingness to learn and change their practices, I simply will not take their animal in, fix it and return it only for them to repeat the exact same foolishness. It's a tough call to make, but for these repeat offenders, if I help them, they simply don't learn anything.

I could ramble-on about this for days and cite many cases-in-point, but it's futile because it won't change anything, so these days I keep my blinders on and *only* focus on those deserving of my attention. If someone is willing to learn, I'm there for them if they need me, but the rest of them will just get kicked to the curb. I'm at the point in my herp life that I have a zero tolerance policy for idiots, which explains my increasingly large ignore list.

Damn you bring up some great points and I couldnt have said it any better myself.

Wayne, I think the problem is bigger than just sav's. Reptiles just arent cute and cuddly and I guess most people just dont give the same respect to their reptile friends as they would a furry friend. It sucks. Even most of the reptile owners that I know personally in Toronto, most of them would call themselves "experienced" but I know for a fact that they still neglect their snakes or reptiles in many ways. Its also much easier to neglect a cold-blooded animal which generally have lots more husbandry needs than a cat or dog ever would. When I first read about ball pythons, I read on so many websites: "Ball pythons are very low maintenance pets, great for beginners!" Its true that ball pythons might be easy for someone who is actually experienced with reptiles, but for a beginner with the expectation that the snake will be easy to care for, once it becomes ~NOT~ easy to care for then the owners 90% of the time wont do anything to remedy the situation. I have a friend who has let countless reptiles and snakes die in his care- chinese water dragon, boas, tegus, savannah monitors and a bunch of corn snakes.. It pains me that I cant change the way he thinks.

Another thing that really bothers me is that if a dog or cat is being treated inhumanely, the owner can be reported and something would be done about it. But if a reptile is being mistreated, I have yet to see an organization who is willing to jump in and help out. People dont seem to be sympathetic towards reptiles, for some reason or another.

kriminaal · 03-22-12, 11:37 AM

People are selfish when it comes to the environment and animals.
All they think about is how it will serve their needs and the present time with very little outlook on the span of it's life.
Unfortunately it becomes more prevalent as us older ones in the hobby become more obsolete and the younger ones take over. Not that all young people are irresponsible.

BarelyBreathing · 03-22-12, 01:06 PM

I saw that. Ugh.

Gregg M · 03-22-12, 04:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kriminaal

People are selfish when it comes to the environment and animals.
All they think about is how it will serve their needs and the present time with very little outlook on the span of it's life.
Unfortunately it becomes more prevalent as us older ones in the hobby become more obsolete and the younger ones take over. Not that all young people are irresponsible.

I agree. Lets put things into perspective here though. The very act of keeping wild animals like reptiles makes all of us who keep them selfish. Lets face it, by keeping and breeding these animals in our homes it does nothing good for our captive reptiles or their wild counterparts. Are there really different levels of selfishness? Being a good keeper does not make you any less selfish than a not so good keeper. Is a person who offers their Sav an 8 X 4 CAGE less selfish than someone who offers a 6 X 3? In the grand scheme of thing, no. You are still keeping a wild animal captive and offering it a fraction of the space it would have if it were in the wild.

In reality it is pretty hypocritical for a reptile keeper to call another keeper selfish. Also words like "pure" and "natural" should not be thrown around too often neither. There is nothing pure or natural about what we do. We keep wild animals in small boxes for our own selfish reasons.

A little OT...
I was once called selfish because I breed reptile in order to make some cash. Like there are better reasons to breed reptiles in captivity? When I asked why they breed their reptiles the answer was something like... "Because I wanted the experience" or "because I like the feeling I get when I see eggs hatching blah blah blah"... How are those reasons better than mine? Ofcorse I love reptiles and get excited during breeding season. So what makes making money on reptiles a bad thing?

**lady_bug87** · 03-22-12, 04:40 PM

^^ makes a lot of sense to me.

infernalis · 03-22-12, 04:43 PM

agreed on all counts, I have said it before...

What truly irritates me is that there is no standards, no enforcement.

A. you chain a dog to a post with a 12 inch lead in the hot sun

B. you keep a Monitor in a fish tank with a single brooding lamp

c. you keep a 12 foot snake in a sweater box under your bed

here is what happens...

A. someone reports you, the dog is taken away from you, you are fined for animal cruelty.

B & C someone turns you in, no one cares, the animal dies...

**lady_bug87** · 03-22-12, 04:47 PM

That unfortunately is the nature of the beast. We all know anyone can buy anything without any kind of background check or permit. I would be all for permitting reptiles and having someone come out and check my tanks

This is not how the world works, some people don't even treat their CHILDREN with care and respect why would you expect them to treat animals any better?

infernalis · 03-22-12, 05:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lady_bug87

This is not how the world works, some people don't even treat their CHILDREN with care and respect why would you expect them to treat animals any better?

I know that one too, I am raising someone else's kid right now because her mother likes men more than children.

Gregg M · 03-22-12, 05:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by infernalis

What truly irritates me is that there is no standards, no enforcement.

And that is why our hobby is in the shape it is now. We never had standards. People insist that our "right" to keep reptiles is being taken away from us. Where in our constitution does it state we have the right to do so? It is not a right, it is a privilege. Now we are faced with this problem with the government cracking down. Now we are spending money and time trying to protect a right we never really had to begin with. We should be and should have been spending time and resources on making a standard. Instead it is a free for all. Regulation and setting a standard is key. We should be looking at how gun owners, hunters, and people who do falconry regulate their hobby and keep their rights.

jarich · 03-22-12, 05:09 PM

Ha! I think you'll find those people had it enforced upon them as well. Self regulation isn't a human strongpoint.

Gregg M · 03-22-12, 05:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jarich

Ha! I think you'll find those people had it enforced upon them as well. Self regulation isn't a human strongpoint.

This is true, however they are still able to hunt, own guns and keep birds of prey. They are also very organized groups. The reptile community is getting more organized but it may be a bit too late.

We need to be regulated. Regulation is far better than having things taken away. I am all for not being able to keep reptiles unless you earn it by meeting certain criteria. People who ave a problem with that are most likely those who have something to worry about.