CGD question

[babysweet]

That's ok... I like them too. And I live in canada!

lol

Interesting though... I wonder what fruit in New Caledonia would be comparable to a banana...

[Violeta]

maybe we should give them the CGD and some fruits , this way their diet will be better right ?

[Betty Miskie]

Hilde: yes, she does have your G. Vorax and they are doing great! She has two cresties as well so who knows, they might be yours as well.
Have you ever put in real fruit pieces in with your cresties? I never know if to try something "new" or not.
Betty

[babysweet]

Just another interesting tidbit about CGD.

Allen Rapashy, of Sunfire Dragon Ranch, as everyone here surely knows, is the Godfather of Rhacodactylus, and currently maintains not only the largest collection of ciliatus, but the largest breeding facility as well.

However, it is arguable that Dragon's Den Herps is the second largest in North America, run by the one and only Mr. Kevin Dunne. It should be noted that he has also been breeding cresties since 1995, and there is NO mention of CGD on his site. I don't think this is due to competition, although I haven't asked him directly. Hmmm... maybe I should.

He recommends baby food with Repti-cal or other similar Calcium/D3 supplement, along with dusted crickets.

My take on this is that although feeding this way would be much more time consuming, and require MUCH more knowledge than simply "just add water," it is a viable and healthy alternative to CGD.

I wonder what Mr. Dunne would say about CGD and added fruit?

I think I'll ask him right now...

Kim

[DragnDrop]

I've tried fruit chunks with cresties, but they seem to prefer licking their food to death The odd one will take really soft fruit chunks like thawed strawberries. The gargoyles would rather die than eat chunks, the only chewing they seem to want to do is bugs. My leachianus likes the odd soft chunks but it doesn't have to be mushy, just not crunchy like apples. Soft figs go over well with the Leachianus, but that's a big part of their normal diet in the wild, so I'm not surprised there.
The most success I've had with chunks is cherries, almost any berry, very ripe bananas and peaches, and very limited success with watermelon.

[babysweet]

DragnDrop, I'm impressed with your creativity!

I had, up until now, avoided berries. Simply because I had never before heard them as a recommended fruit. It just so happens I have a few pounds of frozen strawberries, so maybe my Cresty kids will get a treat tonight!

[CDN-Cresties]

Babysweet, do you know how much time and research went into the development of CGD? (7 years) It wasn't like a bunch of ingredients were thrown together. Everything was carefully balanced to come up with CGD. Allen has done all the work for us! From what I have read Allen noticed that his wild caught specimens lost a bit of colour when fed a babyfood diet. Indicating to him that possibly some ingredient in the wild was not present in babyfood. If I remember correctly, he flew back out to New Caledonia for further research until he discovered what was missing. I forgot what the ingredient was but Ill will find out as I read this on another forum. After establishing a new diet for his geckos with CGD, his collection began to show their true colour potential. Allen has also noted that he experience much higher succesful hatch rates, the measure of success of the CGD.

Like I said earlier, people have different diets that all work. Just because one happens to be more convenient doesn't make it a bad uneducated choice. Everyone has methods that work and like the saying goes, if it aint broke dont fix it.

[babysweet]

I'm actually not aware of how much research went into the creation of CGD, because, quite simply, I wasn't there.

I've never suggested that it was a bad choice, but I don't agree with the "if it ain't broke..." philosophy.

Having studied nutrition in dogs and cats extensively over the past seven years, one thing must ALWAYS be remembered. We can never know everything.

Foods contain properties we don't even know exist yet. I don't know if you remember, but for many, many years cats fed dry food diets suffered from heart and eye disorders due to a lack of taurine in their food. Why? Because, we didn't know they needed it.

And the fact is, we don't know what geckos need either. Long-term testing has not been completed. Seven years may seem like a long time, but formulation alone should take that long. Testing is really not complete until double-blind studies have taken place for the life of the animal in question.

We don't even know the lifespan of these animals, and yet we claim to know what's best to feed them.

Really, CDN-Cresties, I've said this before, but I'm not trying to start an argument. I just enjoy the discussion, and I've never said that one way is the be-all and end-all of cresty nutrition.

But it is a fact that vitamins and enzymes do not respond well to exposure to air. It is a fact that live food (and I mean fresh food, not just crickets!) contains enzymes and amino acids that can not be reproduced in a processed diet.

Admittedly, we don't know if these things are a nutritional requirement for cresties, but we definitely don't know that they are NOT required. Considering we don't know the life span of a wild cresty, or a captive but wild-fed cresty, how do we have a scientifically significant comparison? We don't.

60 years has gone into commercial dog and cat food, by multi-billion dollar companies. And it still can't compare to real food nutritionally speaking.

It's quite possible that CGD is the best thing on the market so far, I'm not saying otherwise. But the maker of the diet (who stands to make substantial profits) claiming better hatchings, etc., is not proof for me. I would prefer a third party unrelated study. Not that I question Mr. Rapashy's ethics, it's just that I was brought up with a healthy dose of cynacism.

I'm very sorry, CDN-Cresties, if I've stepped on anyone's toes. But I've found it always wise to form my own educated opinions, rather than blindly follow others'. I appreciate everyone's opinion here on the forum, and I've found people here (including yourself!) to be extremely knowledgeable.

I guess my point is that my preferred philosophy is not "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" but that "nothing is perfect" and everything can stand some improvement.

[DragnDrop]

Babysweet, I don't think you stepped on anyone's toes, so don't worry. This is a discussion, expressing opinions about the CGD pros and cons, comparing to other diets etc... there's no toe stepping possible, just opinions and questions that spring up from what's posted.

When the CGD and the rest of the family first became available here in my area, I tried it. Some geckos loved it, some wouldn't even lick it, just turned up their noses and ran, others would take it if there was nothing else around. After feeding it full time for 4 months to those adults who would eat it, I didn't see any improvements, no decline, no nothing - they were pretty much the same as the ones I fed the same diet as they'd always gotten.... the fruit/yogurt mix mentioned in another post along with insects. The big difference I noticed was in the hatchlings and juveniles. It seemed they didn't grow as fast as the ones on my 'old' diet, but they did grow, just slower. Once I only used the CGD as part of their diet, they started catching up to the rest of the babies. It's not a scientifically accurate double-blind test, but it was enough for me to realize the 'super foods' aren't quite what I want to use full time. The acceptance rate, the growth rate and cost don't make it worthwhile for me. It definitely rates 5 stars in the convenience department, but the rest of it only rates two and half stars at most.

Some people love to use the CGD and related diets fulltime, some don't, some use it as part of the diet. To each his/her own, they all work, some just faster, some better, some worse than others. As long as the animals are thriving, then go for it. In the long run, all the captive geckos are guinea pigs for husbandry practices anyways - it something doesn't work, they die, we read about it.
So far there's no reason to assum the CGD doesn't work, it's been tested a few years on thousands of geckos.
Nobody is knocking it, we're just questioning how good it is.
You like it? Use it. Don't like it? Don't use it.

[CDN-Cresties]

Babysweet, no toes are stepped on I understand and respect what you are saying. IMO I believe that CGD is the best thing out there right now.

I understand the profits arguement as I have thought of it before but I have a hard time believing that someone like Allen would stamp their name on something that wasn't going to work. Not to mention I have read on other forums of the success people have been having with it.

On Allen's site, he is actually asking people to take part of a CGD study. If I had more time, space, and hatchlings I would take part but I cant. Im looking forward to results.

People have had success with different diets and I would just like to state that im not trying to knock anyones methods down. Keepers have had loads of success without CGD which is awesome, like you I believe that there isnt a diet that is the be-all and end-all of cresty nutrition.

[DragnDrop]

On a slightly different note, has anyone ever tried these Super Foods on other fruit eating geckos? I tried them with the Gehyra vorax, since they love fruit. The male tried the CGD, got a good 'scoopful' of it on his tongue. He sat there on the branch in front of the food, and just froze for about 20 seconds. Then he shook his head like a wet dog does, sprayed the food all over the place. The female was hovering close by, watching him the whole time ("So, how is it? Does it taste good? Is she trying to poison us? Huh? Well??? ) She didn't touch it, just ran away when he sprayed her with the food. About 10 minutes later when I came back to I check on their progress with the food, I noticed both of them had pooped in the food. It was untouched other than what he'd taste-tested before.

To be fair though, the vorax did the same with the ZooMed Day Gecko food. Maybe they just preferred 'real' food.

[CDN-Cresties]

Hilde, you posted at the same as me

I have noticed the slow grow rates as well with CGD alone but with the added crix alternating they seem to grow at a good rate. Possibly this info will help create a new diet in which the grow rate is not so slow.

[babysweet]

Great information to have, DragnDrop.

You mentioned yogurt in your mix... love the idea of all the beneficial bacteria, but I always question dairy fed to any species... what are the pros of feeding yogurt? Is it specifically for the calcium supplementation?

Very interesting...

Thanks for the notes on your experience with CGD. I too have noticed a size difference in youngsters fed CGD vs. fruit, although I have to point out that I have a VERY small comparison base.

I will say though that the one cresty I have who has been raised solely on CGD and crickets although much smaller than his fruit-fed counterparts, seems much more active, vibrant, and seems 'fired up' more often, colour-wise.

Of course, this could be a sign of great nutrition, it could also be a sign of too much of something.. too early to tell. But I won't argue that he does have a glow about him.

I would be curious to know whether a faster growth rate in crestys is a cause of problems as it is in other species.

I am really looking forward to trying some things out in the future. It would be interesting to see the results of a well-controlled comparison.

[DragnDrop]

Originally posted by babysweet
You mentioned yogurt in your mix... love the idea of all the beneficial bacteria, but I always question dairy fed to any species... what are the pros of feeding yogurt? Is it specifically for the calcium supplementation?

~~~*snip*~~~~~

I will say though that the one cresty I have who has been raised solely on CGD and crickets although much smaller than his fruit-fed counterparts, seems much more active, vibrant, and seems 'fired up' more often, colour-wise.

The more intense colours that the geckos display when fed these Super Foods is very easy to explain. Some of the ingredients are known to enhance colour. It's not 'cheating' to feed colour enhancing foods, it's done in with a lot of species. Fish foods are sold specifically as 'colour enhancing'. Dart frog breeders often add paprika to the fruit fly medium or dust the flies with it to enhance the red and yellow colours. In the Super Foods, I see a few ingredients that are known to enhance colour.

If you check the website the list of ingredients states (partial quote)

Haemotococcus Algae: Is included because it is the highest natural source of Astaxanthan on the planet. This part of the Carotene complex, is responsible for the red pigmentation in shellfish It is what turns a lobster red when you cook it It is what makes a Flamingo Pink, It is what makes Salmon meat pink. It is natures source of red pigment, and it is rarely found in commercial diets. Marigold Extract: Is one of natures highest sources of yellow pigment. It is used for example to color the yolks of chickens in commercial farms that would otherwise not have the color found in free range birds.

I use yogurt for the nutrition and easy digestion. Reptiles don't normally eat milk or milk products, but then again, they don't normally eat a lot of things we feed them in captivity, so as long as it's nutritious and doesn't harm them, the benefits would justify using it. In the case of yogurt, I've only seen benefits. The Rhacodactylus, Phelsuma, Lygodactylus, Gehyra vorax and other fruit eating geckos that I've fed it to have given it the thumbs up, thrived and never showed signs of problems from it. It's easy to get and versatile as a meal in itself or mixed. There is a lot of Ca in the yogurt since it's a milk product, but there's also a good balance of protein and other nutrients. It's not a complete diet, but a good base to start with.


There's also this in the ingredients page for CGD:

Probiotics: We use a special blend of bacteria to aid in the digestion process by providing live bacteria to help break down food and provide digestive enzymes.

Whey Protein Isolate. (replaces calcium caseinate in early diets) Whey Protein Isolate is a processed (we use cold processed whey Isolate) byproduct of the cheese industry. It is commonly referred to as the most bio available source of protein available on the planed for humans, and is the Protein of choice for body builders and athletes alike.

That's the same idea as some of the bacteria in the live bacterial culture used in making yogurt. At least some of the same bacteria, just from a different source. Whey protein..... starts with milk

[babysweet]

Great information Hilde... thank you.

As long as you're not seeing any negative effects from the yogurt, it's worth a try. I'm not a fan of dairy for any creature, being of lactose-intolerant crowd. Incidentally, some research recently here at McMaster hospital was trying to isolate the mutated gene responsible for causing lactose intolerance. The discovery? That the mutation wasn't INtolerance, it was actually lactose tolerance that was the mutation!

However, I don't know that any research regarding dairy and reptiles has ever been attempted... it's quite possible that their bodies are better equipped to handle it. Dogs and cats handle dairy better due to their incredibly short and fast digestive tracts... could possibly be the same in reptiles...

Hmmm.. you've got my brain working overtime Hilde, I love it, thank you!

Also big thanks for the information regarding the ingredients of CGD. I'm a huge research nut, but I hadn't really had the time to sit down and pour over the ingredients list (although now you've peaked my interest and I will tonight!)

Keep it coming...

Kim