Rootbeers hatching

[Jeff_Favelle]

Fantastic photos!!!!

[fizox]

Good Show!!!

[Katt]

Totally awesome!!!

There was a GPR I wanted so bad at the show, but I had to settle with a grey rat.

Can't wait to see how they look after their first shed.

[gonesnakee]

I can't beleive how big they are. I say this because I have a bunch of the ones used by Mary to compare & they aren't small either folks. I'd safely say that those are the biggest hatchling "Corns" (I'll use it loosely LOL) I've ever seen before, little mutants they are. Mark
P.S. gonna start them on fuzzies? LOL

[vanderkm]

Definately starting these guys on fuzzies - I think they might take small hoppers!! I can't believe how big they are - thicker and longer than my hondo babies. They are demons too - strike at anything that moves, but nice once you pick them up. Very different from our corns - one is quite brown compared with the rest - will be neat to see how they turn out. And of course I am really waiting for the F2 from these.

mary v.

[Vanan]

I wonder if that's cos of Emory blood in them or the fact that they're crosses. We've found that our hybrids/crosses come out bigger and more fiesty and almost always eat fuzzies by their 3-4 meals.

[vanderkm]

I think it is because of hybrid vigor - a result of the crossbreeding rather than the GPR background. The female GPR was very small when we bought her - had been maintained on pinks only, but still was very thin, though she did have a big head - but not a particularly big snake. I think the cross - even between such closely related species - is what makes the difference in size and fiestyness.

mary v.

[MouseKilla]

That's a very interesting idea. The little I have read about hybrid vigor makes me think you could be right.

Most of the research I've done on it has left me more confused than when I started but my narrow understanding of it is (without first defining what a hybrid is!), the hybrid offspring being superior to both parent races. Superior tends to mean the same thing as being more fit to survive in their current environment so if there is a hybrid vigor effect here, it seems to me what we should be seeing is offspring that are better suited to living in plastic tubs and eating boiled rats. Sounds good to me, domesticated snakes here we come. lol!

Also, back-crossing the hybrid offsping back to the parent species, as you've done with the GPRs, is supposed to help stabilize the bloodline and cause it to breed truer. I would be interested to know how much variability exists in rootbeers and creams in the first generation as opposed to an established line of the same hybrids.

I'm quite interested in this stuff but I didn't even take biology in high school so I could be way off on all of that. lol! Where's that Dr. Fry when we need him? I'm sure he would know about this stuff...

[vanderkm]

Only thing I would argue with is 'superior' definition!! - not more fit to survive in current environment (wouldn't that be neat - adaptation to plastic tubs and boiled rats!!), but in the case of hybrid vigor - it is a general enhancement of vigor - size, feeding response, general basic biological functions like metabolism that are improved when the gene component of an animal is more heterozygous rather than homozygous. Any species bred and selected in captivity for any length of time tends to become more homozygous in lots of genes we don't select for - they kind of go along with the increase in homozygousity in genes we do select for. When you cross two completely unrelated lines (each homozygous for a lot of genes - but not the same ones as the other line) you get a very heterozygous offspring - and that overall heterozygous state is associated with increased vigor. Likely really a result of increased chances of a dominant gene being present in every gene pair - so no double recessives - and most dominant genes are advanatageous to viability.

The basic principle is used a lot in livestock breeding and production - use of crossbred cows that will have enhanced mothering ability with a purebred bull of another breed to increase the growth rate and feed conversion of calves - same with swine and poultry. Interesting to apply stuff from agriculture to hobbies!

Like you say, and back crossing into parent lines will enhance overall homozygousity - I expect a very uniform group in the first generation (all are evenly heterozygous and dominant genes tend to show from every pair of genes) but in the next generation (either an F2 among offspring or back to a parent line) you get a chance for the recessives to show up again so get a lot more diversity there. That's when you really need to do the heavy culling - keep only those that really reflect what you are after in future generations.

Gotta love genetics,

mary v.

[MouseKilla]

That makes sense that the most variation would turn up in the F2s now that I really think about it.

I've done some further digging around and I understand now that the "vigor" isn't some magical thing that happens through combining the two sub-species but instead it's more about switching off harmful recessive genes and allowing beneficial dominants to take over. Again, just my dim understanding of it, I'm probably still wrong about at least half of it. lol!

I guess in order to have the incredible snakes that I was talking about we would need to make a concerted effort as breeders to cull any problem feeding offspring and only allowing the most voracious eaters to reproduce instead of doing all we can to get them all eating. You don't need to be a geneticist to know that ain't gonna happen, not that I think it should but that's what it would take I guess.

I'd rather it be done with ball pythons, you could almost make an argument for it in their case, but for corns I think I would rather select for something a little more abitious like say, snakes that will eventually clean up after themselves. Now that's an adaptation! We'll start by killing all the ones that seem to push the paper in their cages aside and crap in the corner forcing you to scrub instead of just changing the paper. lol! What do you think?

[vanderkm]

Love the idea of selection for snakes that automatically paper train themselves - I definately have a few this year that insist on going under their papertowel instead of on it.

We did the force-feed thing last year to learn how to do it. This year anything that doesn't eat goes to our baby cal king - he has been more than willing to take care of a couple this year for us. Amazing thing is that some of the very tiniest corns I had hatch from very tiny eggs are eating like pigs and it is some of the larger ones that seem to fear a pinky when I put it in with them - they just freak out and try to get away from it (have seen this with rats before but these two were even 'afraid' of mice pinks. They had 8-10 chances but no interest so they have served their purpose - the cal king is looking great!

mary v.

[MouseKilla]

Yes, I'd have to agree with doing that after 8 or 10 tries, fussing over one now just translates into fussing with dozens in the next generation whether it's in your collection or in another.

In the two clutches I had this year I didn't have many that refused more than the first 3 or 4 times, I think maybe just one and as with yours he was one of the bigger ones of the bunch. Weird.

We had a tiny little freak in the second clutch that came from a normal sized egg but weighed only 3 grams! He still isn't big enough to put away the smallest of pinks but on the third try he took a wee little pink's head, he's taken one or two more heads since and might have to eat a couple more before taking his first pink. I didn't have high hopes for this guy and didn't consider him to be an animal I could rightly sell so I have decided to just keep him and see how he does. If he survives then he'll be my daughter's pet, I have no desire to produce pygmy corns! lol!