Small collection of balls.

[RAD House]

Just because they eat birds does not in itself mean they are arboreal.

[dannybgoode]

Originally Posted by MesoCorney

Papers you have read on keeping ball pythons in captivity? Have you ventured to talk to any breeders before forming such a damming opinion of them? I have had the pleasure of interacting with a good amount and have yet to meet one whose biggest concern is not the well being of the animal.

So playing devils advocate here - if a paper were to be produced that demonstrated that keeping balls in racks was detrimental to the well being of the animal how many breeder s would move them out of racks and in to good sized vivs?

As I say - I am willing to push boundaries and explore both sides of the argument. One does not learn without debate and discussion and sometimes that means taking a contrary stance.

I am not out to denigrate or insult...

[RAD House]

For example a large part of a foxes diet is birds as well, but I would not consider them semi-arboreal. Also correct if I am wrong but isn't most of the data collected from a small population of animals that are found in ajungle habitat? It is my understanding that most if not all the morphs were exported out the Savannah habitat in or near Ghana.

[RAD House]

I can only say for certain that I would definitely change my ways, but honestly I highly doubt that will ever happen. Ball pythons have been kept in captivity for more than 50 years, and at no other time have they been bred so prolificly. To be honest most breeders consider the unreliable feeder tag as bull. Both of these advances are largely due to the introduction of rack systems in the hobby.

[Albert Clark]

Originally Posted by dannybgoode

The reason breeders keep them in racks is convenience and profit IMO. I appreciate I am courting controversy here but I firmly believe all reptiles should be kept in as close to a naturalistic environment as possible and the more papers I read on the subject the more I am of this view.

As I say - I have researched this a lot recently and have spoken to internationally recognised herpetologists on the matter and all of them agree on this.

There is mounting evidence (and I mean peer reviewed scientific evidence) that snakes hugely benefit from enrichment and a proper environment. I am just waiting for a word doc summarising the main papers on this subject and I will share it on here.

. Well, actually the reason breeders keep ball pythons in racks is bc it most closely resembles their living conditions and also where they thrive. They reside in termite mounds and rodent burrows essentially a underground existence. It's purely coincidental that it turns out to be convenient whereas it's easy to keep multiple animals in a rack setup. A rack is certainly naturalistic for a ball python. It may not be for a retic or a boa constrictor. Ball pythons get enrichment in a rack system when you give them the proper temperatures and humidity and most definitely the darkness that they prefer. So, I feel that the snakes these herpetologists are referring to are not the ball python.

[dannybgoode]

Originally Posted by Albert Clark

. Well, actually the reason breeders keep ball pythons in racks is bc it most closely resembles their living conditions and also where they thrive. They reside in termite mounds and rodent burrows essentially a underground existence. It's purely coincidental that it turns out to be convenient whereas it's easy to keep multiple animals in a rack setup. A rack is certainly naturalistic for a ball python. It may not be for a retic or a boa constrictor. Ball pythons get enrichment in a rack system when you give them the proper temperatures and humidity and most definitely the darkness that they prefer. So, I feel that the snakes these herpetologists are referring to are not the ball python.

They most certainly are referring to BP's and the whole living in termite mounds is a myth. They do spend some time in them-absolutely-but they do not live in them all the time.

They have also been shown to thrive on and seek out UV and it is far from natural for them to be in darkness/semi darkness all the time. I can find a paper specifically on uv and it's benefits to bp's.

Unfortunately this hobby has a lot of long standing and ingrained practices that are slowly being proved to be outdated and this, in my opinion, is one of them.

Enrichment is more than heat and humidity-it's having things to explore and investigate and to stimulate. As I say I am just waiting for a synopsis of papers on enrichment for reptiles and I will share it when I have it.

But no-a rack system in no way whatsoever mimics a BP's natural lifestyle. Bear in mind or understanding of reptiles is evolving all the time and husbandry etc will evolve with it.

Apologies to the op for taking this so far off topic. However I do think this is a subject worth exploring and debating so perhaps I'll start a new thread on the matter when I have details of the papers I've mentioned.

[Albert Clark]

Originally Posted by dannybgoode

They most certainly are referring to BP's and the whole living in termite mounds is a myth. They do spend some time in them-absolutely-but they do not live in them all the time.

They have also been shown to thrive on and seek out UV and it is far from natural for them to be in darkness/semi darkness all the time. I can find a paper specifically on uv and it's benefits to bp's.

Unfortunately this hobby has a lot of long standing and ingrained practices that are slowly being proved to be outdated and this, in my opinion, is one of them.

Enrichment is more than heat and humidity-it's having things to explore and investigate and to stimulate. As I say I am just waiting for a synopsis of papers on enrichment for reptiles and I will share it when I have it.

But no-a rack system in no way whatsoever mimics a BP's natural lifestyle. Bear in mind or understanding of reptiles is evolving all the time and husbandry etc will evolve with it.

Apologies to the op for taking this so far off topic. However I do think this is a subject worth exploring and debating so perhaps I'll start a new thread on the matter when I have details of the papers I've mentioned.

1. It is not a myth that they live in termite mounds , rodent burrows and tight underground areas lying in ambush.. Just read Justin Kobylka's account of the ball python and its existence in his travels to Benin , Ghana , to study the reptile. They are out in the open only when they are leaving one burrow or mound and searching for another to set up camp.
2. When they are in transit and have either defecated in the area they have occupied or shed their skins and feel they may be detected by their prey.
3. The ball python is a ground dwelling species that is at home in the darkness and in tight fitting spaces underground where they can lie in wait for weeks at a time for prey.
4.Enrichment as far as ball pythons is concerned is providing the requirements that mimics and compliments their behavior. Some keepers want to enrich their eyeballing of a snake in the wild but ball pythons are secretive and don't require this. Par for the course for people who think the ball python is a "pet rock".
5. A rack system absolutely mimics a ball python's behavior and existence.
6. Thanks to the OP for bringing up the ball python and stimulating this discussion so keepers can voice their concerns and be heard.

[Albert Clark]

Originally Posted by dannybgoode

As to the semi-arboreal bit there have been several studies that show an unusually high amount of avian prey in their diet for a supposedly terrestrial animal - yes I can find papers if you are interested.

There are birds that dwell on the ground and make their nests on the ground and underground as well. Most birds forage on the ground also and i would think its at that point they can become a target for a ball python.

[Andy_G]

..so a species that curls up into a ball in order to protect it's head and neck when threatened is considered by some to be semi arboreal...interesting.

[RAD House]

Originally Posted by dannybgoode

They most certainly are referring to BP's and the whole living in termite mounds is a myth. They do spend some time in them-absolutely-but they do not live in them all the time.

They have also been shown to thrive on and seek out UV and it is far from natural for them to be in darkness/semi darkness all the time. I can find a paper specifically on uv and it's benefits to bp's.

Unfortunately this hobby has a lot of long standing and ingrained practices that are slowly being proved to be outdated and this, in my opinion, is one of them.

Enrichment is more than heat and humidity-it's having things to explore and investigate and to stimulate. As I say I am just waiting for a synopsis of papers on enrichment for reptiles and I will share it when I have it.

But no-a rack system in no way whatsoever mimics a BP's natural lifestyle. Bear in mind or understanding of reptiles is evolving all the time and husbandry etc will evolve with it.

Apologies to the op for taking this so far off topic. However I do think this is a subject worth exploring and debating so perhaps I'll start a new thread on the matter when I have details of the papers I've mentioned.

The fact remains that even though you feel you have done your research , it is highly irresponsible to advise someone else test your theories. To change the status quo you need to test them yourself, hopefully not to the detriment of your animals, before suggesting others attempt something different than what is currently proven to work.

[dannybgoode]

Originally Posted by MesoCorney

The fact remains that even though you feel you have done your research , it is highly irresponsible to advise someone else test your theories. To change the status quo you need to test them yourself, hopefully not to the detriment of your animals, before suggesting others attempt something different than what is currently proven to work.

I'm not asking anyone to test my theories. I like most people are following what others who have significant experience and success with this species have suggested works for it.

You also begun working with this species by following the recommendations and work done by others but on a different tangent to me.

Anyway, as I say I think I've taken this post a long way of topic and for that I apologise.

I will collect some papers together and post them accordingly. People are then free to read these, to listen to what experienced people such as you and Albert have to say and make their minds up accordingly.

I might, having considered all the information chance my stance and you yours, but equally if we continue to agree to differ then that is equally fine as far as I am concerned.

[valkea]

Originally Posted by Andy_G

..so a species that curls up into a ball in order to protect it's head and neck when threatened is considered by some to be semi arboreal...interesting.

Hah! Love this comment.

And no worries about going off topic Discussion is always interesting.

Mine are kept in racks. Interestingly enough the male that would refuse live feeders has not missed a single, f/t meal since I acquired him. The cage he was in (arboreal exo) had no branches or anything to encourage climbing. Just a lot of empty space.

Thanks for the comments everyone! Currently drugged up on cold medicine (Why do I always seem to be sick?!) so not much comment on the discussion haha

[valkea]

Also. I bought another one :X


Banana bumblebee mojave male