Saying goodbye to insects for good

[reptiledude987]

What are leaches? I googled them and only got results for leeches.

[eminart]

Originally Posted by jarich

Actually Prariepanda, I think the OP has many misconceptions about the difficulty of raising a large monitor. However, my concern was with the overall idea of feeding and care inherent in the posts. The OP seems to be trying to shape the animal to their needs rather than the other way around. With monitors especially, and most lizards in general, that is a recipe for disaster. That you have cared for snakes has little to do with it Batch. Most people keep snakes in the most bare bones, simple set up, and with a snake you can often get away with it. Monitors are extremely intelligent animals with very specific parameters needed, including diet and enrichment of their environments. Its not about what you want to do or not, its about what is best for the animal. The OP has shown in the preceding statements that they seem more interested in doing what is easier for the keeper rather than what is known to be the best for the animal.

If you are unwilling to provide what is best for the animal, dont get the animal. My advice is stick to snakes.

With all due respect, this is nothing but assumptions and has nothing to do with the question that was asked. For all you know, Batch might have more experience with monitors than anyone in the country. I know you mean well, but I think we, on forums, need to start treating each other as equals. Help where help is asked for, or obviously needed, but don't assume everyone else isn't knowledgeable or doing their research. This advice goes for me as well.

[jossh27]

Originally Posted by Batch

I'm so glad you said that eminart. You're in huntsville (I was on redstone arsenal for two years) where the humidity is perfect for them. In these drier limits they won't breed unless you mist them at least daily.

The only benefit is that if something terrible were to happen here and they all got out they would probably die, and if I were back in the south I'd probably just move.

For this reason alone is why i want nothing to do with lizards... I mean i like lizards but NEVER want to deal with a roach outbreak. EFF THAT!

[jossh27]

Originally Posted by reptiledude987

What are leaches? I googled them and only got results for leeches.

Rhacodactylus leachianus i think Is what they are talking about

[jarich]

With mutual respect, it is more than assumptions, although there may have been some conjecture on my part. I am not assuming Batch has limited experience or research, he stately that plainly himself and it is very easy to deduce from his posts. I have watched plenty of these amazing lizards die a slow painful death because the purchaser did not understand what they were getting themselves into regarding care and diet. These are living creatures that have incredibly specific requirements. Im not trying to be mean in any way, but if the OP is not ready to fulfill the extensive requirements of the lizard, then it really is best not to look at monitors as a purchase. I personally feel they should be a permitted only genera, but that is a different topic altogether.

I also do not at all agree when you state that we all have to treat each other as equals. Yes, we do need to treat each other with respect and care; that is most definitely true. Its important to remember that in order to help the reptile, you must first communicate well to the person keeping it. However, someone with years of experience and even more years of research is not the same as someone who spent a half hour looking on the internet. We are not all equal, whether in forums or otherwise, and while it can be frustrating sometimes to hear advice other than what you want to hear, it is very important for new people to listen to the experience and/or knowledge they are being given. Its always hardest to hear the response that doesnt agree with you, but there is a difference between that and a harsh or mean response. I understand that I was perhaps too blunt earlier, and that was not my intent. But please understand that if these details seem too fiddly or are not something you will concern yourself with two, five or ten years down the road, then this is not the type of animal for you. They require absolutely giant enclosures, with bioactive soil and carefully thought out diets. Bioactive soil includes caring for the bugs in it that help the nitrogen cycle, plants, etc. All fiddly details that dont even relate directly to the diet, yet still require effort and time on the keepers part. Then there is the photo, hydro and thermo gradients as well as the specifics of the diet, which vary for each species. These things are important, not merely details to be thought of once and then left alone.

So yes, I appreciate that there is some experience here, however, when someone asks about keeping monitors but wants to set limits on their care based on convenience, I will highly recommend a different animal. Monitors are not convenient.

[Batch]

Dang Jarich who pissed in your corn flakes?

I was just looking for suggestions here. There is and always have been more than one way to skin a cat.

PLEASE just step away from the keyboard.

[Batch]

Jarich
If I may make myself worthy in your eyes so that I may speak. I achieved my BS in biology assuming I would get into vet school, but when that door closed I chose a new path.I have cared for many species of herps including monitors, and I will admit that two have died short of their lifespan. The first was an ADV+ BD and the second my first childhood leopard gecko who escaped. If this is adequate for me to speak than I shall.

Is a bio active substrate not easier for the keeper because he does not have to clean it?
Isn't it true that the only benefit of this is to reduce protozoa count, as bacteria doesn't decrease in number and only changes?
Isn't it true that the nitrogen fixing bacteria in your substrate are only symbiotic with the plant life, as nitrite concentration, ammonia, and in certain cases the bacteria themselves are harmful to the animal inhabitant?
Doesn't all the empirical evidence on the larger monitor lizards show that insects (even those consumed in the wild), may not be the best for ensuring health of long term captives? See San Diego Zoo Diet Research
You say monitors are highly intelligent, and intelligence is merely an evolutionary response to increase motility, therefore housing monitors at all is fitting the lizard to the person and is not best for the lizard.
The fact is that the reptile hobby is a fringe science at best. We don't know as much as we think we do, and we're all just trying to do the best we can.

With that said, I thank you for reminding me why I have disassociated myself rom reptile forums for so long. I shall be returning to that, Batch signing off.

[jarich]

Originally Posted by Batch

Jarich
If I may make myself worthy in your eyes so that I may speak. I achieved my BS in biology assuming I would get into vet school, but when that door closed I chose a new path.I have cared for many species of herps including monitors, and I will admit that two have died short of their lifespan. The first was an ADV+ BD and the second my first childhood leopard gecko who escaped. If this is adequate for me to speak than I shall.

Is a bio active substrate not easier for the keeper because he does not have to clean it?
Isn't it true that the only benefit of this is to reduce protozoa count, as bacteria doesn't decrease in number and only changes?
Isn't it true that the nitrogen fixing bacteria in your substrate are only symbiotic with the plant life, as nitrite concentration, ammonia, and in certain cases the bacteria themselves are harmful to the animal inhabitant?
Doesn't all the empirical evidence on the larger monitor lizards show that insects (even those consumed in the wild), may not be the best for ensuring health of long term captives? See San Diego Zoo Diet Research
You say monitors are highly intelligent, and intelligence is merely an evolutionary response to increase motility, therefore housing monitors at all is fitting the lizard to the person and is not best for the lizard.
The fact is that the reptile hobby is a fringe science at best. We don't know as much as we think we do, and we're all just trying to do the best we can.

With that said, I thank you for reminding me why I have disassociated myself rom reptile forums for so long. I shall be returning to that, Batch signing off.

Its not about being worthy or adequate, especially towards me, its about your attitude towards the lizard and the knowledge necessary to keep them healthy. I have seen a young teenager learn to care for a monitor carefully and watched a vet slowly kill one in his care too. The difference was in their desire to do what was necessary to insure the optimal health of the lizard, even when it was not easy for them to do so. (To be clear here, Im not referring to the insects either)

You seem to be able to do some research, thats a great start. With much more research, youll understand that while some things can be done in different ways, others require strict guidelines. Think of how much more youll know when you dont need me to tell you that the answers to all those questions you asked are no; or that while the reptile hobby is just that, a hobby, the real scientific research behind what we do is both legion and readily accessible. The real question is will you continue in that research? Or will you leave the forum and simply walk away every time someone disagrees with you? Because there are people here willing to teach you what you need to know, as long as you are actually willing to listen to the suggestions you are given.

[Batch]

Nope, I just wanted to see if you knew anything. The answer to all of the questions were yes, now, please just step away from the keyboard.

[Pirarucu]

I'm sorry but Jarich is correct. If you're not willing to feed bugs, get a species that doesn't eat bugs. Get a snake or get a herbivorous lizard. Don't try to substitute something else for insects that's more convenient for yourself.

As far as the SDZ diet... It works, and it's convenient. That's about all that can be said for it. The SDZ designed the diet because they were breeding Komodos and had a whole lot of hungry mouths to feed. Almost all zoos feed a diet of whole prey items, not the SDZ diet. That was used because it was the only practical way to feed large numbers of Komodos (which, unlike most monitors, don't have many bugs in their natural diet). There is no reason (read: justification) for keeping a single pet monitor on a simplified, minimalist diet. My mangrove gets Dubias, Red Runners, crickets, earthworms, hornworms, shrimp, mice, fish, and chicks.

If you don't want to feed bugs, get something that doesn't eat bugs.

[jarich]

Originally Posted by Batch

Nope, I just wanted to see if you knew anything. The answer to all of the questions were yes, now, please just step away from the keyboard.

"And that is why you fail..."

As I said before, there are people here willing to teach you valuable information, but it would first mean giving up on this 'pissing contest' nonsense. I dont particularly care if you learn anything or not, especially since you dont actually have a monitor. However, in order to learn something and actually gain some benefit from being here you must first understand that you dont know it all to begin with. Is this how you went into every biology class you started?

[prairiepanda]

Originally Posted by Batch

There is and always have been more than one way to skin a cat.

I don't know about that; the guys at the table next to mine in my vertebrate anatomy lab deviated from the lab manual and mangled the cat's pelt to the point where it didn't fit back on properly so several areas were desiccated to the point of making multiple lab assignments impossible to complete.



As for this whole monitor thing; regardless how prepared you might be to care for one, I'd hesitate to recommend monitors to anyone unless they have a passion specifically for monitors. Granted, I have no personal experience with them. But my research into them has indicated that they are a special class of pet and are extremely demanding. I can't comment on whether you'd be able to provide the correct care, but I can say that you've listed several potential candidates for a new pet and that tells me that you do not have a particular preference for monitors. I feel that you would receive the same rewards for caring for a tegu that you seem to hope to receive from a monitor. Yes, they are quite different animals, but if what you want is a big pet lizard and you haven't got a particular passion for monitors, then a tegu would satisfy that. Tegu are still quite demanding animals, but seem to be more forgiving and less dangerous. And if you got a yearling you wouldn't be dealing with bugs. I wouldn't recommend powdered/pelleted/whatever synthetic diets though simply because they are very generalized and none are specifically aimed at a certain species. Besides, making tegu meals is fun!

That said, if you just want a new pet that's easy to care for, the PTS or Leachie would be the way to go. Tegus are awesome if you want something big and can provide everything it needs.

[Pirarucu]

Originally Posted by prairiepanda

As for this whole monitor thing; regardless how prepared you might be to care for one, I'd hesitate to recommend monitors to anyone unless they have a passion specifically for monitors.

Bingo. If you get a monitor, it should not be because you drew up a list and "monitor" was one of the choices.

[trailblazer295]

Alas the first thread I found on this with two members going at it, always some on every forum.

I'll try and calm things for a moment

1st If you're both as experienced on reptile forums as you strongly suggest and if you're on any forum often for anything you should both know you'll never get a consensus agreement on anything. There will always be at least one person who says something different.

2nd Being experienced on forums a lot you should take everything with a grain of salt and not believe everything anyone has said as gospel. No matter how experienced etc. We all know each individual animal is different within their own species. In the wild and captivity and there are countless ways people have successfully cared for the same animal with different methods. Goes for any animal as a pet. Some might be wrong and the animal is just tough but that doesn't mean there is only one right way, there are variations.

3rd Many experienced people on forums (any kind) often make the assumption (myself included) on a persons experience and knowledge based off the initial question without any to little effort to inquire about what they know etc. For example we're on the second page and the OP has indicated he has cared for monitors. We should all take more time to simply ask questions before jumping the gun which often ends in situations like this.

4th You're both obviously adults so try not to take everything so personally and just let things go.

Okay moment over. Take from it what you will. Most of us are on here to try and learn, get advice and suggestions and input. Lets try to keep it on track.

[RAD House]

Jarich you may be an expert, but no one is going to listen to you being so confrontational. From a third party view you started this "pissing contest" in the first place. If you really want to help the lizards learn how to give someone constructive criticism and return with your wisdom. The whole point of this thread was the OP asking people to give suggestions on lizards that do not require insects, not to be drilled on ones that do. As Batch stated the ideal place for your lizard would not be in a cage, so slow your role a bit and realize that we all choose pets based on what we think is best for our own lives.