Where do these myths come from?

[red ink]

Originally Posted by CosmicOwl

If you are simply looking to twist my words around and misrepresent what I am saying, I'm not going to have this discussion. There have been enough bickering sessions that have derailed too many threads lately.

Not looking to twist your words mate... those qoutes are verbatum .

Neither am I misrepresenting what you're saying. You made a sweeping statement about sand as it eluded to being a myth. I sought to correct that sweeping statement.

Firstly by stating that some species do get sand stuck in their scales, secondly by stating that it can cause impaction in reptiles. Another poster even provided an X-ray on the matter.

I am not bickering either, we are having a discussion.

I don't see how a discussion on a topic you brought up in your opening statement is de-railing the thread?

[jarich]

Originally Posted by red ink

Not looking to twist your words mate... those qoutes are verbatum .

Neither am I misrepresenting what you're saying. You made a sweeping statement about sand as it eluded to being a myth. I sought to correct that sweeping statement.

Firstly by stating that some species do get sand stuck in their scales, secondly by stating that it can cause impaction in reptiles. Another poster even provided an X-ray on the matter.

I am not bickering either, we are having a discussion.

I don't see how a discussion on a topic you brought up in your opening statement is de-railing the thread?

Ya, you know how I like a good argument.

The difference is in the additives. "Calci sand" and various other reptile branded substrates have a cementing agent added to them. Concrete is sand, water and a cementing agent, nothing more. But sand alone (washed play sand) doesn't give you a sidewalk. Small particulate matter is something reptiles, like all ground dwelling animals, are adapted to digesting. If you swallow a handful of dirt, it's not going to impact you anymore than it will a healthy reptile. Take that same reptile, put it in a tiny enclosure where it's dehydrated and can't get normal peristaltic movement, and all of a sudden even small particulates can become a problem. It's got nothing to do with the small particulate, it's to do with the animal and the husbandry. If you are dehydrated enough, even enough water will kill you. It's not because water is bad for you, anymore than sand is bad for you. It's that the conditions are set to make just about anything problematic.

In short, sand doesn't cause impaction, bad husbandry causes impaction.

[red ink]

Originally Posted by jarich

Ya, you know how I like a good argument.

The difference is in the additives. "Calci sand" and various other reptile branded substrates have a cementing agent added to them. Concrete is sand, water and a cementing agent, nothing more. But sand alone (washed play sand) doesn't give you a sidewalk. Small particulate matter is something reptiles, like all ground dwelling animals, are adapted to digesting. If you swallow a handful of dirt, it's not going to impact you anymore than it will a healthy reptile. Take that same reptile, put it in a tiny enclosure where it's dehydrated and can't get normal peristaltic movement, and all of a sudden even small particulates can become a problem. It's got nothing to do with the small particulate, it's to do with the animal and the husbandry. If you are dehydrated enough, even enough water will kill you. It's not because water is bad for you, anymore than sand is bad for you. It's that the conditions are set to make just about anything problematic.

In short, sand doesn't cause impaction, bad husbandry causes impaction.

Agreed.. I've already eluded to that in my post that wayne qouted.

Originally Posted by red ink

You made a sweeping statement about "reptiles/snakes" myths and sand... I gave you a specific scenario where its not a myth in regards to scales. Neither you or poison own a carpet, but you do own reptiles yet still believe otherwise. Sand in captivity can cause impaction in bearded dragons... again a reptile. Not really a myth, poor husbandry does play a factor in it and sand is not the only cause. It is'nt entirely a myth either in the same respect.

I have kept a bearded dragon in a sanded enclosure for over a decade... I also hear stories of BDs being kept in sand and being impacted within a month. The details in husbandry practices is the difference. Regardless of the difference in the details.. it was sand that was in the stomach.

Being dismissive about the so called "myth" is just as bad as not knowing anything about particulate substrate husbandry. To simply make a sweeping statement about sand use (and the dangers it may pose) being a myth is rather short sighted.

I also agree that reptiles are adapted to ingesting small particulate... adapted meaning in a natural environment. In all my post I have refered to the use of sand in captivity, there's a difference there.

[Mikoh4792]

Another one would be that cage size stunts growth. Wonder how that one got started...

[red ink]

While we are on the subject of substrates... there's a myth over there that I've always found funny.

The myth that most of my country's terra closely ressemble tiles... hence it's wide and taunted use in Australian agamid husbandry.

No Idea where that has started from... I can assure you though that it did'nt start from us here.

[jarich]

Originally Posted by red ink

While we are on the subject of substrates... there's a myth over there that I've always found funny.

The myth that most of my country's terra closely ressemble tiles... hence it's wide and taunted use in Australian agamid husbandry.

No Idea where that has started from... I can assure you though that it did'nt start from us here.

Of course, everyone knows the ground there is made from paper towels. Just like Africa.

[aRepDysfunction]

There is a pretty simple answer for where these myths come from. Correlation. We have discussed the sand myth, and we have covered that impaction in such a case is a mixture of factors, not just the sand. But of course if you remove the sand from that equation the impaction doesnt happen. correlation = the sand causes impaction not bad husbandry. There you have a myth in the making. Just about any myth runs along the same line.

[Mikoh4792]

Wouldn't sand cause impaction when consumed in large numbers and clumps together /clogs the GI tract even with high temps/hydration? I thought only small amounts were passable.

[Derek Roddy]

As far as digesting substrate....has anyone watched a snake kill and eat something in the wild?
They ingest huge amounts of sand, bark, small stones....all types of foreign objects with no ill effect.

Any ill effect from digesting such materiel would be because of captive conditions. Too dry, too hot/cool, size of living space, frequency of movement, access to optimal conditions, etc

D