The yellow rat snake that may enjoy some human contact.

[smy_749]

Good posts doberman. Though I believe science has far more 'leeway' in these matters, I'll agree philosophy and thinking outside the box due play a roll and have helped make important discoveries. Though it still returns back to science to confirm those theories. As for the present, I'll stick to my opinion that they don't feel as we feel, but like I said quite a few times in this thread, science isn't static, and if in the future the evidence is in favor of the other side, then great. (aside from the guilt trip of neglecting all my snakes who wanted to cuddle and watch lord of the rings marathons and I left them in their cages LOL)

[franks]

My baby snakes gave me a father's day card... can science explain that?

[franks]

My two cents on the argument is that (like doberman said) people seek affirmation, not information. Most of us subscribe to the point of view that explains what we feel comfortable with, whether it concerns politics, religion, or snake love. I think it is clear here that neither side will convince the other of their truth.

[smy_749]

Originally Posted by franks

My two cents on the argument is that (like doberman said) people seek affirmation, not information. Most of us subscribe to the point of view that explains what we feel comfortable with, whether it concerns politics, religion, or snake love. I think it is clear here that neither side will convince the other of their truth.

I agree with this....to a point :P

Because me personally, I wish my snakes would feel affection. I love cats, and its enjoyable to have a pet which shows that type of behavior honestly. However, at the same time I'm not convinced in the slightest when it comes to snakes, although I wish more than anything that they loved me. (((


Also, pics or it didn't happen with the birthday card.

[KORBIN5895]

Originally Posted by smy_749

I agree with this....to a point :P

Because me personally, I wish my snakes would feel affection. I love cats, and its enjoyable to have a pet which shows that type of behavior honestly. However, at the same time I'm not convinced in the slightest when it comes to snakes, although I wish more than anything that they loved me. (((


Also, pics or it didn't happen with the birthday card.

I love cats too! They taste amazing with bulls eye BBQ sauce!

[smy_749]

Originally Posted by KORBIN5895

I love cats too! They taste amazing with bulls eye BBQ sauce!

Never tried full grown cat, but kitten isn't bad and my snakes seem to like it as well. 2 birds with 1 stone.

[Aaron_S]

Originally Posted by franks

My two cents on the argument is that (like doberman said) people seek affirmation, not information. Most of us subscribe to the point of view that explains what we feel comfortable with, whether it concerns politics, religion, or snake love. I think it is clear here that neither side will convince the other of their truth.

I'd like to believe you but your last sentence just isn't right. Science HAS proven to date (not saying it can't change) that snakes operate without emotions as we perceive them.

[Cory]

Originally Posted by Aaron_S

I'd like to believe you but your last sentence just isn't right. Science HAS proven to date (not saying it can't change) that snakes operate without emotions as we perceive them.

Would you be so kind as to substantiate your claim with scientific evidence? As well, how would you interpret the two snake behaviours that I outlined at the very beginning of this thread?

[Aaron_S]

Originally Posted by Cory

Would you be so kind as to substantiate your claim with scientific evidence? As well, how would you interpret the two snake behaviours that I outlined at the very beginning of this thread?

Just because I'm not ready to go to bed yet I'll humour you.

Here are the parts from the first post. I have not seen these actions in person so it's a little tougher to describe the behaviour off in the information given. I'll try though.

1. he will often arch his back up toward my finger. I can slowly pull it away about an inch (2.5 cm) and he will follow with his arched back. I have considered that this may be a negative reaction intended to push me away but his normal reaction to unwanted stimuli is to retreat into his 'burrow' made from PVC piping. If this is a negative response then it is an unusual one compared to all the other times he doesn't like something and wants to get away.

He doesn't want you touching him. It's a defense a lot of snakes use. They "throw" or "push" their body towards what they don't like near it instead of biting. They do have times where they are less tolerant of us and will react differently so I wouldn't say it's something simply because he didn't flee. Lots of animals sit still in hope the predator doesn't see them. Maybe he's making himself look bigger to "shoo" you away?

2. he sometimes begin moving in a very jerky fashion, with sudden and repeated twitchy, even convulsive motions. He maintains his interest in the touch and tends to not recoil when it investigates and realizes that the source is human. Once he even slid two thirds of his body off of his perch and onto my hand.

This would simply be breeding behaviour to me. Regardless of what you're doing or your hand that's what it seems like. Doesn't matter if he ended up in your hand or not. Snakes are pretty dull, he easily could have thought your hand was a warm branch and decided to move onto it. Nothing to do with YOU or emotions.

Lastly, it's already been stated reptiles don't have the limbic system to have emotions. If you'd like some sources brought to you I think you would be the one to need to bring them to us as well. You have brought anecdotes and conjecture.

[franks]

Well we all believe things that we do not want to believe, that is not what I meant by "feel comfortable with." I meant more along the lines that we seem to believe what we believe and admitting to ourselves we may be wrong is uncomfortable at times. And you caught me on the card. I do agree with you though, and I have had some extremely "affectionate" lizards. That is why my best friend is still my dog: because he brings me boxers when I get out of the shower.

[smy_749]

Originally Posted by franks

Well we all believe things that we do not want to believe, that is not what I meant by "feel comfortable with." I meant more along the lines that we seem to believe what we believe and admitting to ourselves we may be wrong is uncomfortable at times. And you caught me on the card. I do agree with you though, and I have had some extremely "affectionate" lizards. That is why my best friend is still my dog: because he brings me boxers when I get out of the shower.

Thats pretty hilarious. lol

[Cory]

Also, I'd like to clarify something. When I suggested that the behaviour of reaching up with its body toward my hand might indicate that Lily the yellow rat snake may enjoy a type of touch I never suggested that Lily was engaged in any moral decision-making exercise. Instead, I assume that snakes can feel both pleasure and pain and can act with both attraction and aversion. As a human caring for animals, I want to best provide for their needs. Some snakes do exhibit some social tendencies such as mating, group denning, and following each other's pheromone trails when exiting their wintering dens for the summer. I am certain that I am unable to provide the exact natural environment for this snake but would like to make its life as good and comfortable as possible. If it turns out that the snake's behaviours were social cues then I would like to know what they mean, hence this request for interpretations. I am more than certain that the snake doesn't "love" anything but that doesn't mean that I do not have an obligation as a good pet steward to try to provide for the animal's needs. That's the entire gist of my request.

[Ourobouros]

Originally Posted by Cory

Also, I'd like to clarify something. When I suggested that the behaviour of reaching up with its body toward my hand might indicate that Lily the yellow rat snake may enjoy a type of touch I never suggested that Lily was engaged in any moral decision-making exercise. Instead, I assume that snakes can feel both pleasure and pain and can act with both attraction and aversion. As a human caring for animals, I want to best provide for their needs. Some snakes do exhibit some social tendencies such as mating, group denning, and following each other's pheromone trails when exiting their wintering dens for the summer. I am certain that I am unable to provide the exact natural environment for this snake but would like to make its life as good and comfortable as possible. If it turns out that the snake's behaviours were social cues then I would like to know what they mean, hence this request for interpretations. I am more than certain that the snake doesn't "love" anything but that doesn't mean that I do not have an obligation as a good pet steward to try to provide for the animal's needs. That's the entire gist of my request.

Pleasure, pain, fear and aggression are forms of primitive emotion. And although science shows snakes lack the cerebral capacity for love and anger in the way we do, they do agree that they can react favorably or unfavorably towards us based on certain stimuli. Your animals are more likely to favor you if you treat them well and visa versa with negative treatment. But animals are individuals and not all respond the same way in the same situations.

I totally get what you're saying here. This thread has unfortunately transformed into a debate of definitions referenced rather than a discussion of similar experiences...

[Amadeus]

This thread is preposterous.

[Mikoh4792]

Originally Posted by Amadeus

This thread is preposterous.

Amen.

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