My wife's first snake, Sidney

[spots]

NICE set up Rob, that's same as I going for. The better part for me is I can build mine
What do you use for heat sources in your Viv's Rob?

[KORBIN5895]

Hey Rob, did I mention I am so jealous!

[Lankyrob]

Thanks for the compliments

I use Ceramic Heat Emitters in all the snake cages and Mercury Vapour Bulbs for the two lizards (heat and full spectrum UV in one bulb!)

[spots]

The bulb type of Ceramic Heat Emitters ?
LOL never mind I just answered my own question by looking closer to your picture.

[spots]

I have a BP and use a day light during the day and red light for night. I haven't had problems. My BP even eats during shed!! I have even seen him cruising around his viv during the day. (early morning or a hour or so before lights out)

IMO. I think using lights is fine considering in the wild there is a sun producing a bright light during the day. (just need to be sure to use a timer to give proper lighting times)
As for humidity it isn't very hard to hold proper levels in a aquarium if you use bark chips and cover part of the screen.

Again this is all IMO (there is so many ways to accomplish the same goal)

[EasternGirl]

Wow...I thought garters were hard to care for....setting up a viv for a ball python is some complicated stuff. Where do you get the plastic enclosures? By the way...beautiful snake Norm.

[millertime89]

Originally Posted by EasternGirl

Wow...I thought garters were hard to care for....setting up a viv for a ball python is some complicated stuff. Where do you get the plastic enclosures? By the way...beautiful snake Norm.

Just about anywhere, they can range from as cheap as a tub from walmart to 600 dollar custom made PVC or ABS plastic enclosure. They're usually not that much for the smaller species though.

[EasternGirl]

Hmm...no one has ever said anything about glass being a problem for garters...why is it such a problem for pythons?

[jarich]

Ha! Thats a very succinct opinion, Mykee. Since we dont know each other at all, I'll assume that it comes from our mutual respect of Aaron's knowledge and is not a reflection on me at all.

First of all, let me say again that I am just thinking out loud here, and not saying that you are somehow not providing an enclosure that is good enough. I know you to be a very responsible and caring keeper, Aaron. Also, I think it should be stated that for any new keepers reading this thread, the most important thing is getting the proper environmental conditions met. What we are talking about are behavioural considerations that should ONLY be considered once you have a good environment created with all temps, humidity, feeding considerations, etc.

Okay, back to the discussion! I think the first thing to consider here is that it has become generally accepted knowledge in the scientific community that captive animals are understimulated. It is also fast becoming prevalent that we have greatly underestimated the development of reptile brains. As a result I think it is easy to extend the idea of understimulation to reptiles. Though there are not many studies, those done on lizards and snakes have shown that in barren captive environments these animals have long periods of remaining motionless in their waking hours. Even something as simple as spatial diversity within their enclosures yielded higher activity and reduced basking times.

As you mentioned Aaron, this does seem species specific, however I dont think this should mean it is not considered. Ball pythons in the wild seek out abandoned termite mounds, rodent burrows and hollowed out logs primarily for resting. However, I do not agree that they would only come out for water. They are frequently seen basking out in the open, even though they are crepuscular. These snakes are mostly an invasive species now. They follow humans as they clear land for agriculture, mostly because that means there are high populations of rodents, their main food source. What that means is that they frequent open spaces like fields and savannas in their waking hours.

I guess the point I am trying to get across is that I think we should start to look beyond the basics of husbandry. Once we have met all their basic needs, what more can be done to increase their quality of life? Stimulation via enrichment of their environment is a simple thing to do, and studies are increasingly showing that this has real effect.

[millertime89]

they can hit like freight trains. A 6 foot blood can hit as hard as a 10+ foot retic, check out some retic feeding vids to get an idea. It can be even worse on cage aggressive one or one in breeding mode.

[Aaron_S]

Jarich, I ask for any links where I might find these studies done? I would think their would be a lot more conversation in regards to this if this was to be true.

I would very much like to read these studies.

I'm going to stick with the species specific topic because to talk about all reptiles, or even just snakes or boids on a whole would be rather difficult to maintain a coherent discussion.

I don't necessarily believe that ball pythons require or need any sort of enrichment. I relate enrichment to other animals, with a known higher brain function such as primates. Who actually need it to survive as they'd go crazy without something to do. I don't believe this to to be the case with ball pythons.

I would agree that at the very least, I'd rather see a larger, more elaborate enclosure act as a stimulant than for someone to increase handling their pythons. I had a discussion with another member on the forums and they have even said that since they have become more hands-off due to the rest of their life that they find their snakes are doing better!

[red ink]

The secret to snake keeping (what ever the species)

Correct temps, adequate humidity, food and water, a secure hide (perches if arboreal) in an appropriate sized enclosure (whatever that is tub, room, plastic enclosure, glass, bird cage, outdoor pit)... not really rocket surgery.

The rest as enclosure enrichment or fancy vivariums/enclosures are for the keepers benefit not the snakes really as the bases are covered.

[lady_bug87]

quick off topic question

for those that use tubs/ rack system do you provide a photo period? and if so, how? and if not why not? I thought a photo period was necessary for BPs

[mykee]

I personally keep my ball pythons in transluscent bins in a rack and I have both a window and a simple ceiling light one a 12/12 cycle. Ball pythons, unike many other species, do not require a strict light cycle.

[jarich]

I couldnt really find any of the links that deal directly with the effects of cage dynamics online, unless you belong to the Wiley Online Library. There is an amazing book that has a few of them called The Health and Welfare of Captive Reptiles, which was edited by Warwick, Frye, and Murphy, and another called The UFAW Handbook on the Care and Management of Laboratory and Other Research Animals. Ill warn you though, they are both kind of ridiculously expensive unless you find a used copy.

As to Aaron's and Red Ink's comments about enclosure enrichment, they sound eerily close to what was said about chimps and other 'higher' animals about 50 years ago. Back then, nobody thought there was any reason to add enrichment to those animals cages either, because, hey, theyre just animals. After we got better at recognizing the signs of stress and anxiety in them though, we discovered that we do need to give them a rich environment for them to really thrive. Again, not to keep them alive, but to really make them thrive. And it only makes sense; if you put an animal from the wild into a barren plastic tub there is going to be some sort of detrimental effect on the brain. I think perhaps we are coming to that point in reptiles as well. Im not saying that a barren cage will make them crazy, just that a more enriched environment will lead to a healthier animal.

As to your comment about handling, Aaron, I am starting to agree, although this may indeed be a very species specific idea. Here are a couple articles I was reading the other day about it:

Effect of husbandry manipulations on respiratory rates in captive bearded dragons (Pogona vitticeps)
http://www.rogermeekherpetology.com/...tion%20HND.pdf

Physiological and behavioural effects of handling and restraint in the ball Python (Python regius) and the blue tongued skink (Tiliqua scincoides)
Elsevier