Pics of brb setups wanted :)

[maiden_canada]

haha thanks jeff, for once i thought i was proven wrong...:P

[Invictus]

Oh, right... I forgot to follow up on that too.

I am well aware of how relative humidity works. My point was, Victoria always has a high humidity level, even when the average temperature IS in the 30s. The reason why you have less absolute humidity in the winter is because the lower temperatures cause less evaporation.

So you WERE proven wrong, Clarke. Your argument about how dry it is there right now was moot to begin with.

[maiden_canada]

i said it was dry here, it is. you admitted it, and jeff proved it.

[Jeff_Favelle]

1) Take a pill. These forums work 10x better when the threads stay away from he personal stuff. If you can't handle a debate without attacking someone, don't bother. At least not a thread with me. That's all I ask. Its all about the animals. Try to keep that on topic.

2) Why I am having a debate on how to keep Rainbows with someone who doesn't even keep Rainbows is beyond me. Ha ha, maybe because I'm bored, maybe because its fun, or maybe because I'm putting off helping my girlfriend with her thesis. Either or, I'm in for a tough battle because your point of reference is far below that of someone's with actual experience. This is what leads to hot-headedness and narrow-minded opinions. Oh well, its still fun.

3)

It also doesn't mean that using an overhead light is a detriment to the snake's health, does it? NO

Actually it kind of does. Its what I was imlying anyways. Depends on the light. Surely a 25W light bulb wouldn't kill a Rainbow. But a 100W one might. Especially in a certain cage. I've seen it happen. Actually, I've replaced a baby Rainbow for a customer (for free) this year because he used a 60W and a 15 gallon aquarium. Turned the snake into beef jerky. But actual proof is not what you like to hear, so on we ramble.....

Where did the humidity come from? This is the last time I'll say this - from the sun warming the ocean.

Actually, a TON of humidity comes from transpiration and throughfall in a tropical rainforest. Any 200-level forestry course will teach you that. Again, you'd see these things if you travelled to the forest to see with your own eyes.

Thus, keeping a BRB in a terrarium with restricted air flow (simulating a canopy) with an overhead light (simulating the sun) over a large water source (simulating the ocean) is about as natural as captivity gets, Jeff. You cannot reproduce the rainforest any better than that. Period.

LOL! Humidity is but one TINY aspect of a tropical rainforest, and believe me, an aquarium comes no where close to reproducing actual conditions. Again, being a tropical rainforest will show you this.

As I said the last time we had this stupid a$$ debate (in which you were still unsuccessful in coming with a single valid and proveable reason why overhead lights are detrimental to a snake's health),

No debate on a snake's health and snake husbandry is stupid. I'm sorry you feel that way. Reptiles are my life. 10-14 hours a day, 6 days a week are pretty much dedictaed to something reptilian. I consider no husbandry conversation stupid. If you feel that strongly, maybe you shouldn't have this discussion. I have a feeling that it might be better for your well-being.

I have already done the experimentation, and have proven the results. I had a glass tank with a screen lid, and a light source over a water source. The ambient humidity was clocked at well over 80% WITHOUT MISTING. And for the record, my house has less than 20% humidity.

I have NEVER said it couldn't be done. Not sure if you THINK I have, but I haven't. I only suggest what has worked for the LEADERS of the industry. Nobody has to listen. And most certainly nobody has to get their panties in a knot by the suggestion of the use of a Rubbermaid. Not at all. The reason it is suggested is because if someone ias asking for advice on the keeping of a Rainbow, it is assumed that they are new to keeping Rainbows. And if they are new, they are prone to make mistakes. Not because they are stupid, and not because they are mean, but because they lack the understanding and familiarity with what being a Rainbow owner is all about. Giving them this advice provides them with the ammo necessary to get a GOOD head start and have their first BRB experience a positive one. Nothing more. Again, certainly nothing to get worked up about.

in which you were still unsuccessful in coming with a single valid and proveable reason why overhead lights are detrimental to a snake's health

I came up with a valid enough reason for myself, and I think if its valid enough for me (9 years with Rainbows, 6 years breeding, hundreds of babies, multiple generations) then I think its at least worth of discussion. Its not bragging. Its just a debate. I like to debate with actual facts and data. You like to debate (this topic) with that people have told you and your own beliefs, which are far removed from actually keeping a BRB. Two VERY different things. I am not chastizing you for it, just pointing out that we are coming from two VERY different points of reference.

Thanks for the lesson, Dr. Favelle. I'm not debating that with you. I'm debating the ways in which ambient humidity is created in a captive environment. Way to dodge the topic.

What topic have I dodged? Let me know and I'll address it directly. Hard to believe that after this much typing (blech) that I've actually "dodged" any topics, but ok, I'll bite; which one?

LOL!!! Riiiight. Like any herp keepers or breeders want their names mentioned in a thread like this, just so they can have their credibility destroyed by people like you who are convinced that your way is the ONLY way.

I hardly think anyone's "credibility can be destroyed by proving that their methods are successful and they have actually had multiple healthy, large litters of BRB's born in their care. Why would that make them lose credibility? That doesn't make sense man. I am in NO way convinced that my way is the only way. You say that like I made my husbandry methods up!! LOL! No way. I just copied from the best. If a Group A has a method that produces outstanding results and "Group EVERYONE ELSE" has methods and results that are mediocre at best, which group should I have copied? Yes, Group A. Good guess. I didn't invent breeding Rainbows, or keeping multiple generations successfully. It was done LONG before me (ask Roy Stockwell). I just copied what they did and the rest followed. I could have copied everyone else in the late 80's that was using light bulbs, hot rocks, wood chips, etc etc, but they killed all their animals. Indeed.

None of them want to be picked apart by elitists who love to dismiss peoples' credibility just because they do something that is against the trendy, popular opinion.

Credibility is earned. Its not just given out at the Credibility Store. If you are successful, you are successful. Nobody can argue with that. I wouldn't even try. I never knew that keeping Rainbows in Rubbermaids without lights was trendy. Actually, I always thought the opposite was trendy. This always explained to me why there were so few Rainbows offered for sale. I mean, I've pumped hundreds (thousands??) into the Canadian market and I've kept back babies that have had babies that have had babies, so why is there so few produced? Granted, not everyone buys them to breed, but I know each customer I sell to. I know when people buy 1.3 or 2.7 that they are going to be breeding them (or trying to). Why haven't they? It doesn't make sense. And that's only my babies! What about Annette's? What about Pat Dring's? Don Patterson's? Brad M's? Darren Hamill's? Why aren't they producing them from all that stock that has made it into the Canadian market for the last 8 years? I say its husbandry. Only problem is, if I do say that, you get mad, call me an "elitist" (?? ha ha, whatever), and say that I abuse anyone who doesn't agree!

Not at all man. I just ask that people provide proof to back up their statements. Its really not too much to ask. There are very impressionable people here that are JUST learning about keeping snakes. They really should be started off on the right foot and have as many feathers in their caps as possible, don't you think? Proof is in the pudding. Its nice that you have your theories and opinions and all, but really, until you prove otherwise, how can they be anything more than that? Theories. No flame meant by this, but if I want advice for something, I go to the source. Not someone who may or may not know a source of source who once bred a pair of Rainbows and managed to keep the babies alive long enough to sell. That is just me and by no means does that put me above anyone else. Just my though on that, and I am NOT forcing anyone to agree.

Whether it was done BY me, or simply shown TO me is absolutely irrelevant, and I have to say, a completely petty and inane argument, Jeff. You're a smart man, you can do better than this.

Better than what? You have complained so many times about heresay, trendy opinions, and popular consention, yet then you come and say "I know a guy that knows a guy that once did this" WTF?!!! Does that not make you laugh? It sure made me laugh.

And it is not irrelevant. Lack of actual results is in direct relevance to this arguement. How can one give a serious debate (and even get angry in the process) without firsthand knowledge and/or success??? Its beyond me. But no matter, as I like this debate. Snakes are my life, so talking about them totally sits well with me.

Ooooooo, from myth right into herp keeper elitism!!! This thread has it all, kids! Dr. Favelle (you do have a PhD in herpetology, right?) has decided that you must repeat success over several generations in order for your practices to have any validity whatsoever!

Ouch! Unnecessary Roughness, 15 yard penalty! Dude, what's up? I had a definition of success. You neither have to agree nor disagree, that's up to you. I shared it, as I hoped to give you an idea of my point of reference and to hopefully convey where I was coming from in my arguements. I had no idea that it would be thrown back at me like that. Wow. I talk to the "BIG" guys all the time, and this usually happens to be their measure of success as well. I think its the reality. But bear in mind, that is what I THINK. I even stated that! So for you to poo-poo over it and call me all high amd mighty because that is how I measure success when breedign reptiles is just weird. I wonder why I even participated in this discussion at all. Not cool.

THIS, my friend, is why the big breeders don't get into these debates. Because there's always someone who has a good reputation and blinders on - the two lead to pompous elitism, and reputations being DESTROYED, simply because someone goes against the norm. This is not unlike high school. Someone goes against the norm, and they get persecuted, even though their ideas DO WORK.

Not unlike high school indeed. I couldn't have said it better myself. *See above paragraph*

FOR THE RECORD - I never once criticised your husbandry, Jeff. I know that you have a way of doing things, and it has worked very well for you. But you have no right to criticize other peoples' practises which do work, just because you don't practise the same techniques yourself. I believe you when you say that rubbermaids are the way to go. But they are not the ONLY way to go. I believe you when you say that a heat source is best created with heat tape. But it's not the ONLY way to do it. I believe I showed with my statement above that an overhead light is as close to real conditions as any snake is ever going to get. And though I don't own any BRBs, I'm not debating BRB husbandry. I do use overhead lights in a few of my enclosures for humidity loving species, and have had great success maintaining humidity, and the only effort it takes is refilling a water dish every few days.

If you can show me where I EVER said that there is only ONE way to do things, I'll eat my hat. No question.

Not every breeder visits ssnakess or queensnake every day, Jeff. And I didn't get all of my information from those sources either. I don't see Clark or Graziani posting regularly in these forums. They are too busy providing some of the best herps on earth. This argument HAS taken place, but not on an Internet message board. I don't consider this place to be the be-all and end-all of herp husbandry. If you do, that's just plain sad.

Actually, I spend more time on the phone, MSN, or visiting the breeders than I do here. The reason they don't post (at least the ones I talk to regularly) isn't because of time. In fact, two of the biggest python breeders in the world have their OWN forums to manage and moderate! That takes 10x more time than visiting the online forums, so don't tell me that's why they don't post, LOL! There are many reasons and if you knew the stuff that goes on behind the scenes, it would blow your socks off. Trust me. But I can't say anything on that, and its really not my business to discuss. LOL!

And really, that's not relevant to our discussion. All I asked for was proof that these methods you praise so much actually work. In turn, you got mad and turned the thread into a personal arguement about me thinking I only ever do things the right way and in the history of reptile keeping, only my way works in my head. In truth, I advocate MANY different methods. In fact, in the last 14 months, I have changed my Ball Pythons substrate 5 times! And I've been breeding them for 8 years!!! No way am I stuck in my ways. The only way that I am stuck in, is the ways that actually work! Sorry you can't see that, and feel the need to chastize me for it. Oh well. At the end of the day, it makes zero difference.

I'm personally fed up with this debate too, especially since you always manage to turn it into a debate about BRB husbandry, instead of keeping it what it is - a debate about how wilderness conditions are simulated, and the different techniques by which people go about things.

"How people simulate wilderness conditions with different techiques"???????? Dude, is that not the DEFINITION of husbandry?!!!!! You kill me man. And if you are so personally fed up, then don't reply. You have the power. It will add YEARS to your life man. Trust me.

You're obviously convinced that your way is the one and only way to keep BRBs, and that's fine, Jeff. Believe what you will. I will continue to show people ways to keep a humidity-loving species that differs from your way. The difference is, I will NEVER tell you that your way is wrong.

Certianly. But I have seen WAY too many Rainbows die at the hands of the inept to sit back and say nothing when people are practising bad husba.......er......wilderness control. I love animals. Especially snakes. And especially Rainbows. I firmly believe that the longer you successfully work with an animal, the more understanding you get about their natural history and physiological requierments. And that is superceded when you actually go field herping for them in their native habitat. I'm sad that you don't share this thought. But its not my place to make you think like that.

But nor is your place to rip me for having those thoughts. Especially when I conveyed them in a calm, collected thread.

Toodles.

P.S. And I never said your way was wrong. I just said that it sucked.

[Jeff_Favelle]

And I do use lights. I use a TON of them. 4 different species of snakes that I have have lights of som sort in their cages. Soon to be a 5th, when they get big enough. I have 29 lights running in my reptile room right now, and the monitors aren't even in it!

I'll advocate lights in the right cage and setup. Actually, show me repeated success with lights for Rainbows and all advocate them for them too!

Young male Jungle on to his 2nd female. Lazy-a$$ breeder won't even fully tail-wrap!

[maiden_canada]

invictus, the average temperature is in the 30's in victoria? there might have been 5 days this year that got 30+. more like average temperature = 18º

[Jeff_Favelle]

Actually the average temp in Victoria is more like 10 C (I think) and the average summer temp is about 14 C (I think).

[Jeff_Favelle]

My point was, Victoria always has a high humidity level, even when the average temperature IS in the 30s. The reason why you have less absolute humidity in the winter is because the lower temperatures cause less evaporation.

ACTUALLY Invictus, we have higher humidity in the winter. SIGNIFICANTLY higher. I'm not sure where you are getting your info man, but its wrong. Dead wrong.

[ChristinaM]

Originally posted by Jeff_Favelle
I wonder why I even participated in this discussion at all. Not cool.

Because people like me, being new to brb's, APPRECIATE hearing ALL sides to this particular snakes husbandry. Thank you

Thank you everyone, amongst the odd rude comment, there is ALOT of good info here. Mucho appreciated.

[maiden_canada]

jeff i think the average summer temp is 18º, remember last summer it was pretty warm, i think it went up to 22 or so average. id say average temperature in florida isn't even 30

[wyz]

You guys are soooooo predictable

Originally posted by wyz
Nobody will show them, because experience BRB keepers only use rubbermaids and if you post a pic of something else they'll have a ball thrashing your setup saying it's bad.

But I admit, there was no trashing, wich is really good and surprising. I'm excluding Invictus and Jeffs exchanges, because you two are like steak and hot butter, when you come together there's allways cracks and pops, but the outcome is allways pretty good and tastefull

Like Bichiraddict said
"amongst the odd rude comment, there is ALOT of good info here"

wich is really great..

I have a final question now...
We (me and my GF) like our setup even if it needs alot of time and spraying and cleaning, but that's OUR problem..
This being said... do you think our snakes can be in good health in that setup ? If we keep up with the misting and cleaning we are use to ?
And note that it will be enlarged pretty soon and every 2 or 3 months if needed. I don't mind building enclosures, it's my favorite hobby.

thanks again guys !

WYZ

[Tim_Cranwill]

WYZ, I would just try to keep the humidity in a bit more when you build. Also, I would take Jeff's advice and ditch the light and keep them in seperate enclosures. Other than that, it looks like you know what your boas need and you're more than willing to provide it for them.

[Invictus]

Originally posted by Jeff_Favelle
[B]1) Take a pill. These forums work 10x better when the threads stay away from he personal stuff. If you can't handle a debate without attacking someone, don't bother. At least not a thread with me. That's all I ask. Its all about the animals. Try to keep that on topic.

I couldn't agree more. I also think that these forums work 10x better when opinions are expressed as such, and facts are expressed as such. Jeff, you and I have pretty much the same communication style, and that's one of the reasons why I love debating with you. That being said, we are both guilty of expressing our opinions as facts. But the main reason why I got into this debate again is because I'm sick to death of people jumping down other peoples' throats and telling them that their method SUCKS, just because there may be a better way. That being said.....

2) Why I am having a debate on how to keep Rainbows with someone who doesn't even keep Rainbows is beyond me. Ha ha, maybe because I'm bored, maybe because its fun, or maybe because I'm putting off helping my girlfriend with her thesis. Either or, I'm in for a tough battle because your point of reference is far below that of someone's with actual experience. This is what leads to hot-headedness and narrow-minded opinions. Oh well, its still fun.

First of all, you're having a debate about how to keep rainbows because yet again, you turned it into a debate about how to keep rainbows. I was talking about this B.S. debate about how lights are rotten and bad and the epitome of all that is bad about snake husbandry. And I don't keep brazilian rainbows YET. I've been researching them for a long time, and talking to MANY different breeders about husbandry techniques. If you have too, I wonder also why we're having this debate, because I've probably been talking to the same people. You may also notice in my signature that I do have Colombian rainbows. I know they're not brazilians, and their environment requirements differ, but it's a great way to experiment with different husbandry techniques with a creature far more forgiving to mistakes.

Actually it kind of does. Its what I was imlying anyways. Depends on the light. Surely a 25W light bulb wouldn't kill a Rainbow. But a 100W one might. Especially in a certain cage. I've seen it happen. Actually, I've replaced a baby Rainbow for a customer (for free) this year because he used a 60W and a 15 gallon aquarium. Turned the snake into beef jerky. But actual proof is not what you like to hear, so on we ramble.....

All you've proven is that 60 watt bulbs are bad. Not that ALL bulbs are bad. Even my BCIs only get 40 watt bulbs for their hot spots, because that's all you need to create a nice 90 degree hot spot. That snake you replaced died for one reason and one reason only; because instead of telling people how to make their environment work for their animal, you just tell them their way sucks. If you focused half as much energy into simply telling people "Hey, if you absolutely must use a lamp, which I do not recommend, make sure you don't go over 25 or 40 watts, and check your temps regularly... or you could try this way, which doesn't require as much effort....", instead of just telling people their husbandry techniques "Suck", maybe less rainbows would be getting killed from people who will just do their own thing anyway. This is my point, and this is why I debate so strongly with you on this subject. Because instead of educating people about how to make their setup work, you just knock them down, then they do their own thing without the proper education, and they kill the snake. Seems to me that maybe you should be looking at your education skills before you call me for a 15 yard penalty.

LOL! Humidity is but one TINY aspect of a tropical rainforest, and believe me, an aquarium comes no where close to reproducing actual conditions. Again, being a tropical rainforest will show you this.

Oh, but a rubber sweater box does? last I checked, whether the walls of the enclosure are wood, plastic, or glass is irrelevant. But again, you would rather just tell people their husbandry sucks instead of educating them as to how an aquarium could work.

No debate on a snake's health and snake husbandry is stupid.

I couldn't agree more. A debate on whether the walls of your enclosure are plastic or glass is what is stupid.

The reason it is suggested is because if someone ias asking for advice on the keeping of a Rainbow, it is assumed that they are new to keeping Rainbows. And if they are new, they are prone to make mistakes. Not because they are stupid, and not because they are mean, but because they lack the understanding and familiarity with what being a Rainbow owner is all about.

That's not how this argument started. I never once got worked up about the suggestion of a rubbermaid. As mentioned above, I keep Colombian rainbows. I also keep a blood python, another humidity lover. And what do I keep them in? Rubbermaids with moist sphagnum that I mist once a week. I love it! And if I had more time on my hands, I'd keep them in aquariums so that I could see their beauty at all times, but I don't have the kinda time it takes to maintain a correct environment. But I do know how to do it. And I'd rather share that information, while still showing people that a more restricted air flow environment is still a much better way to go; but that, again, is not how this started. It started with WYZ showing a non-standard way of doing things, and Tim Cranwill criticizing his husbandry and saying that his use of an overhead light was a mistake. It is NOT a mistake, as WYZ obviously spends the time to keep humidity up, and keep the temps warm enough. He just puts way more effort into his husbandry than necessary, but that doesn't mean he's doing it wrong or that his way sucks.

I like to debate with actual facts and data. You like to debate (this topic) with that people have told you and your own beliefs, which are far removed from actually keeping a BRB. Two VERY different things. I am not chastizing you for it, just pointing out that we are coming from two VERY different points of reference.

You have no presented no facts in this debate, just your opinions on the matter. Facts are indisputable. I can dispute the overhead lights, and PROVE my point many times over, and that makes it my facts, my data, and my proof. But in the end, it's really just an opinion. And like I said, I don't keep brazilians YET. That doesn't mean I haven't spent a lot of time preparing for when I DO buy them. And I have experimented with many different environments for many different species, and frankly Jeff, keeping a BRB is no different than keeping a blood, except for one thing - bloods like it warmer than BRBs. BRB husbandry is not something that requires 6 years of experience or 3 generations, or a friggin PhD. It just requires a bit of knowledge, and a bit of attention to detail. Beyond that, as long as the end game is achieved, you have no right to tell people their husbandry sucks if the temperature and humidity of their environment is where it should be.

I hardly think anyone's "credibility can be destroyed by proving that their methods are successful and they have actually had multiple healthy, large litters of BRB's born in their care.

Jeff, don't give me that. I have seen it happen, and I have heard conversations at herp shows. I know how much slander and gossip goes on behind the scenes when someone's husbandry practises don't fit the norm. Besides, it is not my position to name names. If some of the large scale breeders I have been talking to wish to contribute to this conversation, they will do so on their terms. I won't bring them into this against their will, especially when 2 of them have specifically asked me not to.

Credibility is earned. Its not just given out at the Credibility Store. If you are successful, you are successful. Nobody can argue with that. I wouldn't even try.

I've already proven my success with aquariums, overhead lights, and wood chips OVER and OVER again, but you're not interested in hearing it. And apparently people CAN argue with that, because you're arguing it right now! And you say you wouldn't even TRY??? Well, that's just like me telling you that rubbermaids suck, even though I wouldn't even try it. See my point? You're not interested in proof. You're more interested in being an authority on BRB care.

Not at all man. I just ask that people provide proof to back up their statements. Its really not too much to ask.

Again, proof provided many times over, Jeff not interested.

There are very impressionable people here that are JUST learning about keeping snakes. They really should be started off on the right foot and have as many feathers in their caps as possible, don't you think?

Yes. And they should also be told how to make their environment work so they don't end up with snake jerky.

Better than what? You have complained so many times about heresay, trendy opinions, and popular consention, yet then you come and say "I know a guy that knows a guy that once did this" WTF?!!! Does that not make you laugh? It sure made me laugh.

I didn't say I know *a* guy who *once did this*. I said I know MANY large scale breeders who keep BRBs in a mixed dry/moist environment with huge success. And I'm not talking about someone who bred one litter either Jeff. I'm talking about people who have been breeding them since before you knew what they looked like. But again, I have been asked not to drag them into this debate.

And it is not irrelevant. Lack of actual results is in direct relevance to this arguement.

And once again, despite the fact that I have proven over and over again that aquariums and overhead lights CAN work, I still end up getting into these debates with you. You're not the least bit interested in anything that proves you wrong.

How can one give a serious debate (and even get angry in the process) without firsthand knowledge and/or success???

I dunno... how can you tell me that my way sucks if you've never tried it? You're being a hypocrite.

Ouch! Unnecessary Roughness, 15 yard penalty! Dude, what's up?

Ok, the comment I made here was uncalled for, and I humbly retract my sarcasm and apologize for it.

There are many reasons and if you knew the stuff that goes on behind the scenes, it would blow your socks off. Trust me. But I can't say anything on that, and its really not my business to discuss. LOL!

And that is the exact position I'm coming from.

Certianly. But I have seen WAY too many Rainbows die at the hands of the inept to sit back and say nothing when people are practising bad husba.......er......wilderness control.

And instead of educting them as to how their techniques can work, you tell them their husbandry sucks. Then they do their own thing anyway, and end up with a crispy critter.

So really, that's all I'm debating here. Despite the proof and personal success that I've offered up with creating environments that would be suitable for a BRB based on their requirements, you're not interested. And you're right, I don't have BRBs YET. Instead, I've been spending a long time making sure that when I do get some (and I still say I'm getting at LEAST a trio from you, Jeff, even though you pi$$ me off regularly, LOL), that I'm prepared and can create a great environment for them. And guess what? I've decided to repeat my success with a rubbermaid and moist moss. All I'm offering up with this debate is that with some care and attention, and overhead light CAN work, even for a BRB, and I know many people who have done it, and I have repeated the environment for other creatures - I just found it too much effort in the end with 32 pets in the house.

I apologize for anything that I said that you perceived as a personal attack. I still want to pinch your cheeks at the next herp show, you baby-faced little brat, you.

[Tim_Cranwill]

Invictus, if I may, you have not PROVEN over and over that aquariums + lights work. You've only been keeping snakes for a year+/-. How does that prove ANYTHING? Most snakes can live for a year even if you don't even feed them.

You keep saying that you've talked to big breeders so you know what can work with high humidity set ups.... that is not fact. That is YOUR opinion based on THEIR opinion/experience. One of the worst things about a site like this is people who speak with more confidence than they should about things they don't know about and mislead new keepers. Not saying you haven't spent 80 hours reading up on brb's or that your Blood and Columbian keeping experiences haven't taught you anything but you're not on the same playing level as Jeff on this one.

It's obvious that you're smart and articulate and that you have strong feelings on the matter. I wish more keepers had as strong feeling as we've seen in this debate. But this is starting to look more like a "prove each other wrong" debate and the nit picking - finger pointing arguments aren't really helping anyone out here. If anyone is shooting anyone down here, it’s you shooting Jeff down. That’s just uncalled for in my opinion.

One thing that can be agreed upon here (I hope) is that with new keepers, the more variables in the equation, the more room for errors and the more errors, the more mistreated (or even dead) snakes. I know we all want every snake kept healthy and properly. When I first posted on this thread my concerns were less with WYZ’s set up and more with others trying to half-a$$ copy it. That set up can work it you’re willing and able to put in the extra effort but I bet most new keepers aren’t. I would always recommend simple and effective set ups to new keepers over complex and labor intensive. Period. No matter what “can” work. Tell them what WILL.

Those are my feelings on the matter… feel free to pick them apart if you like…

Thanks,
Tim Cranwill
www.cranwill.com
cranwill@mts.net

[Jeff_Favelle]

Because instead of educating people about how to make their setup work, you just knock them down, then they do their own thing without the proper education, and they kill the snake.

Riiiiight..I've NEVER educated anyone before. Ever. I've have NEVER given ANY husbandry advice. Never. Not in the 4,500 posts here. Never. I gave the guy a 1,700 word caresheet on how to properly care for the snake. He had the tank all set up and was determined to use his aquarium and light. I sold over 200 snakes this year. I can't know EXACTLY where and what snakes are going to end up. Its impossible. I try to steer clear of obvious newbies, but this guy seemed like he knew better. Didn't read the care sheet, snake got fried.

And you're saying its MY fault? Are you on glue man? I am not in the business of educating people in how to MAKE DO with their crappy setups. No way. I tell people a setup, or range of setups that works dynamite and whether or not they choose to use it is up to them. But it ends there. I'm sorry and I am not a reptile angel that can fly around checking everyone's aquarium with a hot rock, screen lid, and a spot lamp, with gravel for substrate, no proper hide, etc etc. Its just logistcally impossible for me to do that.