Thawing frozen rat

[jjhill001]

Originally Posted by Wharf Rat

I know this topic has been discussed, just wanted to hash it out a little...

I switched to f/t a few years ago with my ball python. I thaw them in hot tap water for about an hour, check them by feel to make sure they're warm and thawed, dry with paper towel and feed the snake (now snakes).

So, on a Facebook ball python page I just joined someone asked how people choose to thaw. I stated the above and was immediately "corrected" by an admin stating that that method does not meet FDA guidelines for thawing meat and that I was being careless with my snakes. The 24 hour refrigerator method, or running under cold water is the only legitimate method. Ok...opinions...whatever. I stated that it was a common practice in the reptile community, and that I've never experienced a problem with my snakes. I was scolded and jumped on by several other members for being reckless and basically told I was offering dangerous advise...also I was banned from the group! LoL fine... Please note, I was not rude or anything, just supporting my opinion. This all happened over a period of like 10 minutes.

Ok... So my question... If you thaw in the fridge you have to warm up the rat before feeding right? So how much more bacteria is gonna grow in the hot water thaw method verses the refrigerate and warm up method? This is a sincere question...not trying to start a hostile debate lol (although it did irritate me that they were so closed minded and banned me over a legitimate discussion on their page).

Please... I'm very interested in opinions and info on this subject. Thanks.

FDA guidelines also say you need an expiration date on salt and that the way Europeans eat cheese and have chicken eggs is going to kill them so I'd just point that bit out.

I had no idea there was such a debate to be entirely honest.

I will say that some people have obnoxiously hot tap water and that could potentially cook the mouse which probably isn't a smart idea but warm at about 100-110 degrees isn't likely to even begin cooking the mouse. From a quick google 113 degrees F is the lowest temperature that I could find that would begin cooking anything.

On feeding day I toss a couple mice in a sandwich bag and put them in warm water in a coffee cup which holds the warmth a little longer for about 45 minutes then one more warming to heat them back up a bit.

If I was feeding something as large as a rat I'd probably leave it in a bag on the counter for at least a few hours to let it thaw out a bit more before floating it in water. If it was a medium or larger one I'd probably do the full 24 hours.

Overall unless your tap gets obnoxiously hot like some people's do I'd not worry too much about it if your snakes are eating and doing alright.

[Aaron_S]

I don't have enough fridge space so I do the room temp and use hot water some hours later to heat them before feeding.

I usually take mine out in the morning and feed 12+ hours later.

[TRD]

Originally Posted by Aaron_S

I don't have enough fridge space so I do the room temp and use hot water some hours later to heat them before feeding.

I usually take mine out in the morning and feed 12+ hours later.

Actually it got me wondering a bit..

Most bacteria seem to replicate every 30 minutes or so at room temperature.

If one would say that on a dead mouse there are 100 'malicious' bacteria present, then in 12 hours this number would be 409,600 bacteria.

Leaving a mouse 'overnight' which has been thawed in this method (let us assume here the total time is 24 hours) would result in 1,677,721,600 bacteria.

I never had a snake turn ill or otherwise leaving a mouse overnight. Sometimes have forgotten the mouse and it was eaten the following evening. surely snek would of died.

TLDR: applying standards to reptiles that are build for humans (like FDA) is fundamentally flawed

[Andy_G]

Originally Posted by TRD

TLDR: applying standards to reptiles that are build for humans (like FDA) is fundamentally flawed

EXACTLY right.

[Trouser Snake]

Originally Posted by Andy_G

EXACTLY right.

I agree, that's just common sense. Mods of Facebook groups tend to think of themselves as some sort of higher beings, which is why I prefer proper forums where everyone is allowed an opinion without the pitchforks coming out. I like this forum. CBRF UK wasn't too bad when that was about but had it's problems. I have to say it seems more civilised on ssSnakeSs.com!!

[jjhill001]

Originally Posted by Trouser Snake

I agree, that's just common sense. Mods of Facebook groups tend to think of themselves as some sort of higher beings, which is why I prefer proper forums where everyone is allowed an opinion without the pitchforks coming out. I like this forum. CBRF UK wasn't too bad when that was about but had it's problems. I have to say it seems more civilised on ssSnakeSs.com!!

I was in a fb community and out of it in less than 4 days before I left because of the attitudes.

[dannybgoode]

Originally Posted by TRD

Actually it got me wondering a bit..

Most bacteria seem to replicate every 30 minutes or so at room temperature.

If one would say that on a dead mouse there are 100 'malicious' bacteria present, then in 12 hours this number would be 409,600 bacteria.

Leaving a mouse 'overnight' which has been thawed in this method (let us assume here the total time is 24 hours) would result in 1,677,721,600 bacteria.

I never had a snake turn ill or otherwise leaving a mouse overnight. Sometimes have forgotten the mouse and it was eaten the following evening. surely snek would of died.

TLDR: applying standards to reptiles that are build for humans (like FDA) is fundamentally flawed

And I'll always offer any uneaten items that have been left overnight to one of my waste disposal snakes

[Aaron_S]

Originally Posted by TRD

Actually it got me wondering a bit..

Most bacteria seem to replicate every 30 minutes or so at room temperature.

If one would say that on a dead mouse there are 100 'malicious' bacteria present, then in 12 hours this number would be 409,600 bacteria.

Leaving a mouse 'overnight' which has been thawed in this method (let us assume here the total time is 24 hours) would result in 1,677,721,600 bacteria.

I never had a snake turn ill or otherwise leaving a mouse overnight. Sometimes have forgotten the mouse and it was eaten the following evening. surely snek would of died.

TLDR: applying standards to reptiles that are build for humans (like FDA) is fundamentally flawed

Valid point. I'd like to see a study done on which of these "harmful" bacterias can be harmful to a health snake.

Originally Posted by dannybgoode

And I'll always offer any uneaten items that have been left overnight to one of my waste disposal snakes

I do the same.

[jjhill001]

Originally Posted by Aaron_S

Valid point. I'd like to see a study done on which of these "harmful" bacterias can be harmful to a health snake.



I do the same.

People literally dry age steaks for up to a month and a half letting bacteria grow on purpose and then eat them rare/medium rare. I highly doubt the majority food left out 24 hours would be particularly dangerous as long as you cook it.

And snakes which are known to eat decaying animals in the wild I imagine would have even less adverse effects

[Herpin' Man]

Speaking for myself, I would not put too much stock on advice from people on facebook. Banned from the group? You're probably better off without them.
I thaw my rodents under a heat lamp. No stinking up the kitchen, no feeding wet prey to the snakes. The only thing I need to be careful of is not overheating them.
I have done this without issue for decades.

[eminart]

Originally Posted by Herpin' Man

Speaking for myself, I would not put too much stock on advice from people on facebook.

This is 100% true, especially if it's just a general snake page, or something dedicated to the more commonly kept snakes. There are some pages dedicated to more experienced keepers who aren't just regurgitating the latest nonsensical fad, but those are usually closed groups.

I'm with most everyone else. I thaw in warm/hot water in ziplock bags. I use the bags just because of the types of substrate I use. It keeps the rodent drier so they don't pick up a pound of substrate on their fur.

[Wharf Rat]

Originally Posted by eminart

This is 100% true, especially if it's just a general snake page, or something dedicated to the more commonly kept snakes. There are some pages dedicated to more experienced keepers who aren't just regurgitating the latest nonsensical fad, but those are usually closed group.

It was a closed ball python group. In their defense lol they did state that their main focus was to teach new ball python owners the correct way to do things and not confuse them with advanced ideas or things outside of the norm. But from what I see, thawing in warm water IS the norm.

[Aaron_S]

Originally Posted by Wharf Rat

It was a closed ball python group. In their defense lol they did state that their main focus was to teach new ball python owners the correct way to do things and not confuse them with advanced ideas or things outside of the norm. But from what I see, thawing in warm water IS the norm.

Lol it is the norm. Funny thing is they are confusing new keepers by giving their norm. Not the hobby's.


And **** all of you who can put a few feeders in ziplocks to thaw. I'd go through boxes of them a week if I did that. I just toss them in a dedicated rat tub and make rat soup.

[eminart]

Originally Posted by Aaron_S

And **** all of you who can put a few feeders in ziplocks to thaw. I'd go through boxes of them a week if I did that. I just toss them in a dedicated rat tub and make rat soup.

LOL. I actually only have 6 snakes in my house right now and 4 of them belong to my 12 year old daughter. That said, I reuse the same bags a lot.

[Wharf Rat]

Originally Posted by Aaron_S

Lol it is the norm. Funny thing is they are confusing new keepers by giving their norm. Not the hobby.

Haha, exactly! Everywhere they look they will see and hear the way the masses do it, which goes against what they are being taught... its like a snake cult in the making