bateater x ball python has anyone made that yet

[StudentoReptile]

Originally Posted by dehlol

These hybrids are stupid, irresponsible, and serve zero place in the reptile hobby.

That is your opinion, and I respect that. However, I would like to hear your reasons why you feel this way.

Stupid:
Are you implying that the hybrids are somehow less intelligent that their pure parents? Cite evidence. Perhaps you simply think they are just stupid-looking. If that is the case, to each his own. Many feel the same way about morphs & mutations. Purely subjective and not fact.

Irresponsible:
It is obvious that you're suggesting that creating a hybrid is irresponsible. If you can provide evidence that the guilty party did so by accident (Ex: a burmese "accidentally" crawled into the tub of a ball python, and a few months later...OOPs!), or if the person clearly has no regard for keeping records of the bloodlines of his animals, is inaccurately representing or labeling them, or the hybrids have been proven to have health defects, then I may be inclined to agree with you. Regrettably, there are a handful of keepers out there that give the rest of us a bad name, but I'm pretty sure most of the people who crossed the hybrids on the list knew what they were doing, had their own reasons for doing so, and clearly have not misrepresented the animals in any way. They certainly are not releasing these monsters back into the wild.

Again, explain why you feel those hybrids (or rather, the people who created them) are irresponsible.

Serve zero place in the reptile hobby:

Again, purely subjective. I can see three main drives for wanting to create a hybrid. The first is simple curiosity, to see if two species are indeed capable of producing viable offspring. To my knowledge, there is no documented health problems or reports of sterility in any reptile hybrids [if I am wrong, someone correct me].

The second one is the need to create something new. Going hand-in-hand with the first, some wish to put certain ingredients together and see if the outcome is grander than the two sums. Some disagree with this, claiming we should not mess with nature, but personally, I think its too little too late for that and there's a bunch of holes in that argument anyway. For one, people do the same thing with creating morphs. Making a hybrid is just taking it a step further. Remember this is captivity, folks, not the wild. Unless you are involved in a restoration project trying to re-establish a species back in its native environment, the whole "natural" argument doesn't fly in my book. True, some hybrids are really beautiful while some are butt-ugly...but we still didn't know until we tried.

The third is pretty obvious: money. Not as noble as the first two, but probably more dominant. It kinda goes hand-in-hand with the second one; everyone wants to create that "new" something, and hybrids are just another product on the shelf. Not everyone is a fan, but many are, and they will pay to get it.

The bottom line is that they do serve a place in the hobby...maybe not a place in every person's collection (some might say the only place worthy is in the belly of a king cobra or a Drymarchon!), but a place nonetheless.

[dehlol]

Originally Posted by StudentoReptile

That is your opinion, and I respect that. However, I would like to hear your reasons why you feel this way.

Stupid:
Are you implying that the hybrids are somehow less intelligent that their pure parents? Cite evidence. Perhaps you simply think they are just stupid-looking. If that is the case, to each his own. Many feel the same way about morphs & mutations. Purely subjective and not fact.

No, owning them is less intelligent. We have no idea what the genetics do when fused into 2 snakes, what genes will express themselves and what will not. Take for instance ligers, bigger than lions and tigers, but a huge mess genetically.

Irresponsible:
It is obvious that you're suggesting that creating a hybrid is irresponsible. If you can provide evidence that the guilty party did so by accident (Ex: a burmese "accidentally" crawled into the tub of a ball python, and a few months later...OOPs!), or if the person clearly has no regard for keeping records of the bloodlines of his animals, is inaccurately representing or labeling them, or the hybrids have been proven to have health defects, then I may be inclined to agree with you. Regrettably, there are a handful of keepers out there that give the rest of us a bad name, but I'm pretty sure most of the people who crossed the hybrids on the list knew what they were doing, had their own reasons for doing so, and clearly have not misrepresented the animals in any way. They certainly are not releasing these monsters back into the wild.

These things don't happen by accident in the vast majority of cases- especially with something like a retic x ball. Lets say you end up with a particularly large clutch, hell even 10 for instance from one of these breedings. The original breeder might keep a few, maybe for future generations, but the rest will go up for sale at some point. Who's to say the new buyer will be responsible. Who's to know what that snake is going to do as it grows. If I'm looking at a new pet or breeding animal- I want to know about it first, I won't know anything about what this new morph is going to do or react, it's behaviors, size, nothing. The seller has to sit down and reasonably ask "who can I responsibly sell these animals to". That's extremely hard to answer, and nearly impossible to track after the fact.

The other solution- is to cull the babies that are born and not needed by the original breeder, so they aren't in the public's hands, and the original breeder can get a firm grasp on what exactly the hybrid is, how it behaves and such. This is a whole new kettle of fish, as even though they are hybrids, they are still animals and killing them for such a stupid reason is frankly unethical.

Serve zero place in the reptile hobby:

Again, purely subjective. I can see three main drives for wanting to create a hybrid. The first is simple curiosity, to see if two species are indeed capable of producing viable offspring. To my knowledge, there is no documented health problems or reports of sterility in any reptile hybrids [if I am wrong, someone correct me].

The second one is the need to create something new. Going hand-in-hand with the first, some wish to put certain ingredients together and see if the outcome is grander than the two sums. Some disagree with this, claiming we should not mess with nature, but personally, I think its too little too late for that and there's a bunch of holes in that argument anyway. For one, people do the same thing with creating morphs. Making a hybrid is just taking it a step further. Remember this is captivity, folks, not the wild. Unless you are involved in a restoration project trying to re-establish a species back in its native environment, the whole "natural" argument doesn't fly in my book. True, some hybrids are really beautiful while some are butt-ugly...but we still didn't know until we tried.

The third is pretty obvious: money. Not as noble as the first two, but probably more dominant. It kinda goes hand-in-hand with the second one; everyone wants to create that "new" something, and hybrids are just another product on the shelf. Not everyone is a fan, but many are, and they will pay to get it.

The bottom line is that they do serve a place in the hobby...maybe not a place in every person's collection (some might say the only place worthy is in the belly of a king cobra or a Drymarchon!), but a place nonetheless.

A lot of people believe that in a few hundred years, there won't be "natural" left in this world, and what is own by private collectors, zoos, etc will be what's left of "wild animals". If you wan't to breed something, put effort into a pure species and making it better for future generations, put effort into making a calmer line of anacondas, locality animals etc. The last thing I want to have to show my grand kids in a zoo is "this is a hybrid between 2 animals that don't exist anymore", as frankly, I'd rather show them a picture than a trash animal like that.

[StudentoReptile]

Originally Posted by dehlol

No, owning them is less intelligent. We have no idea what the genetics do when fused into 2 snakes, what genes will express themselves and what will not. Take for instance ligers, bigger than lions and tigers, but a huge mess genetically.

Hybrids in mammals are different than hybrids with reptiles. Again, please provide evidence of any defects or health issues in reptile hybrids directly caused by the crossing.

These things don't happen by accident in the vast majority of cases- especially with something like a retic x ball. Lets say you end up with a particularly large clutch, hell even 10 for instance from one of these breedings. The original breeder might keep a few, maybe for future generations, but the rest will go up for sale at some point. Who's to say the new buyer will be responsible. Who's to know what that snake is going to do as it grows. If I'm looking at a new pet or breeding animal- I want to know about it first, I won't know anything about what this new morph is going to do or react, it's behaviors, size, nothing. The seller has to sit down and reasonably ask "who can I responsibly sell these animals to". That's extremely hard to answer, and nearly impossible to track after the fact.

The other solution- is to cull the babies that are born and not needed by the original breeder, so they aren't in the public's hands, and the original breeder can get a firm grasp on what exactly the hybrid is, how it behaves and such. This is a whole new kettle of fish, as even though they are hybrids, they are still animals and killing them for such a stupid reason is frankly unethical.

I see your point, but none of the behavior you have described is really exclusive to those who create hybrids. In fact, although it's purely speculative on my part, I daresay the number of irresponsible morons in this hobby who sell large constrictors and monitor lizardss to inexperienced kids without offering any care information or warnings of the animals' adult size is vastly greater than the number of breeders who make hybrids combined.

So if you're going to play the "irresponsibility" card, there's a long line of folks in this industry you need to be barking at before you get on to hybrids. And honestly, even at "reduced prices," most of these hybrids are still pricey and not likely to fall into the hands of the inexperienced anytime soon. Think about it; most of the people who would be interested in buying a bateater are probably already retic and burmese fans. They KNOW what they're getting into. Same with carpondos; these are people who already are in the GTP and carpet demographic. They're not noobs.

A lot of people believe that in a few hundred years, there won't be "natural" left in this world, and what is own by private collectors, zoos, etc will be what's left of "wild animals". If you wan't to breed something, put effort into a pure species and making it better for future generations, put effort into making a calmer line of anacondas, locality animals etc. The last thing I want to have to show my grand kids in a zoo is "this is a hybrid between 2 animals that don't exist anymore", as frankly, I'd rather show them a picture than a trash animal like that.

Most respectable zoos aren't going to take in hybrids. They are ridiculously anal about where their animals come from. Yes, I know there are exceptions, but they really are in the minority...and any zoo that would take in hybrids probably isn't a zoo worth going to anyway.

I agree more people should focus on pure stuff. But I'll rehash some thoughts from a similar discussion on another forum:
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First off, I kinda have to agree in that there is a clear separation between exotic animal keepers in general: there are "pet owners" and there are those dedicated to assurance colonies for the purpose of conservation. There are a few exceptions where individuals fall under both labels, but I would say the vast majority of that 7 billion+ demographic are, at the core, pet owners seeking animal companionship and/or feeding their biophilia. Its not necessarily a judgment, just a reality.

On the flipside, as far as repatriation, and the "Noah's Ark" scenario, I do think more should be aware of these types of issues and the industry as a whole should put more effort into preserving the more obscure species in captivity.

Personally though, I could give a flying rat's arse what the AZA thinks. Private keepers are just as capable of maintaining and propagating rare species in captivity; their only problem is that money often gets in the way. But in short, if a rare herp species was on the line, and some captive breeding needed to be done, I'd trust any number of private keepers than I would an AZA-accredited organization.

I admit, the reptile industry is far from perfect, and certainly has faults....but when someone is dedicated to a particular species, they will get some stuff done!

AZA-accredited zoos will tie themselves for years with red tape and paperwork just to pair up two animals, and the private sector will be at least a few years ahead. Now I understand the importance of pure bloodlines and lineage, etc., but again, private keepers are just as capable of handling this.

Honestly, when push comes to shove, the zoos will start looking to private keepers for advice and for stock. And in some cases, they already do.
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On a slightly different note, I want to preface my following statements with something my late grandfather said: "In a 100 years from now, no one will know the difference." Now, some may take a little offense to that in matters like this, but let's look at the big picture here. The planet as a whole is spiraling downward in an irreversible path all across the board: economically, politically, and environmentally. We're so worried about this Noah's Ark scenario, but seriously, at the rate we're decimating entire ecosystems, flattening forests, bull-dozing grasslands, polluting waterways, etc....how imperative is it that we have every single subspecies of say, leopard tortoise? Heck, 50 yrs from now, I'd be happy just to still be able to get a leopard tortoise period if I wanted one! I know a lot of this could be doomsday speculation, but there could honestly come the day where there will be more of a said species in captivity, then there is in the wild. Heck, with some species, this is already the case.

I used to get really worked up about hybrids and pure bloodlines, etc...but not so much anymore. There are already people who devote the necessary attention to these "assurance colonies." Yeah, it'd be nice if more people thought that way, but I'm not as worried about it as I used to be. In the end, its not fair for me to judge or criticize what people do with their animals, as long as the animals are taken care of, represented properly, and there are no health issues involved with said hybridization. Again, in 100 yrs, how much of this is really going to matter? In my opinion, we'll have a lot more to concern ourselves with the decades to come.