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Old 04-14-05, 05:53 PM   #1
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First, let me say that I have a lot of respect for Allen and Anthony, but that does not mean I have to agree with them all the time.

Now about that info you wanted us to read...

Did you note the part where he says he feeds live prey including roaches (mentioned in one of his follow-up posts) to his geckos because he likes to have them grow faster? And the part about the CGD being adequate for the average pet?

So this is a complete balanced diet suitable for being the sole food? Why do they grow faster when fed bugs then? Hey, I have an idea.... I'm going to produce a super duper complete balanced diet that you can feed your children, nothing else need be added except drinking water, the only problem is that they'll grow slower than their friends who are eating something else along with this diet..
HUH? Would you go along with that? Wouldn't you wonder just WHY they're going to grow slower than the others? Granted, growing too fast has it's own problems, can be detrimental, but growing slower than the accepted norm isn't quite something to write home about, is it?

He admits he feeds live prey in addition to CGD. So, he's not feeding ONLY CGD, his geckos are getting other food. Also note, he says 'for the average pet owner' it's good enough to use only CGD. I would be inclined to think that the average pet isn't called on to breed on a regular basis. Pets are pets, breeders are breeders, average pets are just that --- pets, part of the family in many cases, spoiled rotten in a lot of cases too, but still only pets, not breeders.

As a Rhac owner who not only allows them to breed but pretty well expects them to breed, I feel it's much better for them to have a variety of food. If they don't want to eat a certain food, great, it's their choice, I won't argue. However, there's no way I'm going to say they can't have this or that, but they'd better produce offspring for me anyways and that's that, now hurry up, go lay me some eggs.

I'm still trying to find the part that says mixing CGD et al. with other foods destroys the nutritional balance. Maybe I just missed it.
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Old 04-14-05, 06:10 PM   #2
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Once again im short on time so I cant respond to a large majority of your threads but that part of throwing of the nutrional balance is located in the kingsnake rhac forum. I believe it was in 2005 and Neoscales mentions it. I promise I will respond in detail to your responses.
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Old 04-14-05, 06:13 PM   #3
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Here is the thread.

http://forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=703539,703659
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Old 04-15-05, 04:21 AM   #4
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We also feed ours a variety of foods including gutloaded and dusted crickets, various fruit mixes, and GGD. A few of them will also occasionally take various types of worms (usually the girls ). The key to good health in all the various species of geckos that I have kept over the years has been variety, and I fully agree with what both Hilde and Kim are saying in their posts on this matter.

I use the MRPs as a supplement to an already diverse diet, but I would never even think about changing what I have been doing for the past 6 years in regards to constantly diversifying my cresteds diet. The idea that babyfood takes away from the nutritional content of the food is absurd unless you are strictly feeding the diet and babyfood mix, but even then if you were to add one part CGD to 2 parts babyfood you would still have the same amount of CGD irregardless of whether or not you used H2O. Yes there could be extra sugars that could potentially lead the geckos to store them as fat, and overtime this could lead to obese geckos that would have very little breeding success, but once again you would be pretty hard pressed to find any breeder that follows this method exclusively. It still doesn't alter the fact that the content of the food mix is still one part CGD plus all the extras that may be in the fruit that definitely won't be in the water. As Hilde has pointed out already, even Repashy and AC don't feed the diets exclusively.

Steve - Do you have a link that you could post that would direct us to Allen's hatch rates. I have the April 98 article where he gives the averages for 5 females and their hatch success rates for 96, 3 of which were on his mix of fruit babyfood and meat mixed with a few other ingredients, and I would like to compare then and now. I think it could go a long way to speak volumes about changes in success with just a powdered diet.

After reading through the posts about this on the other forum I have to say that I was surprised at the level of arrogance that was displayed on several issues by one person in particular.
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Coming from a fitness & nutrition background, I have to chuckle when I hear people say that because it just demonstrates how ignorant (in the true sense of the word) these folks are when it comes to nutrition. CGD has all macronutrients (carbs, fats and proteins) and micronutrients (vitamins, minerals, etc.) covered...Back in the day when I was lifting five days a week, I would've killed for an MRP for humans that had those bases covered. CGD has honey and banana powder (there's our natural fruit/sugars), plenty of fiber, healthy fats, whey protein (the same type that professional bodybuilders use), vitamins (including D3), minerals and calcium...
I'd like to know what he has read that gives him such confidence to say that these ingredients combined in the concentrations that they are in offer a nutritionally balanced and complete diet for R. ciliatus. From all the reading that I have done on the species I have yet to find any real definitive answers as to what their diet actually comprises, and as far as I've been able to find there hasn't been any definitive research on the wild diet of most of the species in the genus besides more of a focus on the diet of leachianus. Until someone gets funding to go out into the field and study this we can only speculate, and to say that other people are ignorant because they may not have a "fitness and nutrition" background is just plain...well...ignorant!

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Geckos go after live insects due to feeding response...not because they need them. It's called an opportunistic feeding response.
Actually...this would fall under the classification of survival! LOL
Although most geckos are "sit and wait" predators, and this could also be considered opportunistic, they are hardwired this way to conserve energy, and they most certainly do need prey if they are to survive in the wild. Granted that they don't range nearly as much as they would in the wild, so they don't burn nearly as many calories in captivity, but the need for sustenance would be the whole point of them being hardwired to hunt in this fashion. Flowering plants generally don't produce fruit year round, so what would make up the rest of their diet during the offseason if they aren't getting calories through fruits and pollens? I don't know about anyone else, but my cresteds don't seem all too interested in crickets during certain times, and I think that they actually do have a natural "switch" that turns off when they don't need those calories anymore. All my males tend to keep crickets as pets during the offseason! When you read further on in this particular section there is a comparison to the feeding response of a obese Burmese Python. It's kinda like comparing apples and radishes, and trying to say they offer the same function to their respective environments!

When I was done reading through all the posts I was left with a bad taste in my mouth at the level of arrogance that that one person in particular displayed toward some very valid points made by other people. By saying "look at my success for the last 6 months" I think that it will ultimately hurt the case of those pushing this diet as this is a ever evolving foray into the natural sciences, and it takes years for any hypothesis to become a workable theory.

I don't think I will change anything I do for my Rhacs. And if anyone wants to send me to New Caledonia to do field work just let me know! I'd be more then happy to figure out exactly what they eat!
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Old 04-15-05, 07:31 AM   #5
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The way my lifes going right now I'll leave for New Caledonia tomorrow, Lets go!
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Old 04-15-05, 07:34 AM   #6
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Hey, take me along, will ya? You make the observations, I'll write them down, that'll justify the expense of me tagging along, okay?

I think what got me the most was his comment that he feeds other foods to his geckos, yet the average everyday common pet gecko can survive on just that artificial diet. .. ... why should his rate better than the others?
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Old 04-15-05, 08:09 AM   #7
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I am really enjoying this thread as I am relatively new to cresties and want the best for them. I have always said that I took Hilde's diet (as I was in awe of how healthy hers looked) and am absolutely happy with the outcome of my cresties, young and old. When I first started with babies, I mixed my babyfood with cgd (fed nightly) and found the babies were smaller. When I feed mine every night with the homemade babyfood and then slowly start adding crickets, I have big, healthier looking cresties.
I still offer cgd (dry form in their enclosure) so if they think they need more, it is there for them. I would never go exclusive with cgd as I too feel that the cresties need more than that and I really don't think the "makers" have proven beyond a doubt in my mind that it is the best and the only way to go.
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Old 04-15-05, 09:48 AM   #8
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Very interesting read! I tend to mix my foods up. One night it'll be crickets, the next Babyfood mixed with CGD, Just Babyfood(a recipe actually) or just CGD. Gives a variety!
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Old 04-15-05, 11:43 AM   #9
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I could push for a grant from the government and telefilm to make a documentary about geckos in the wild.
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Old 04-15-05, 11:46 AM   #10
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Hmmm... I have seven years experience in behavioural observation... albeit in dogs... I could definitely be useful on your trip. I'm pretty small too... Bet I could fit in a suitcase...

I hear New Caledonia's nice this time of year.

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Old 04-15-05, 11:49 AM   #11
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Hilde, I'm pretty sure I asked you this once before.. if that's the case, forgive me.

I was hoping you could share your actual recipe with me. I've been adding yogurt, but I've been having a hard time estimating the measurements.

Could you specify how many parts yogurt to babyfood, and any supps you include?

For those of us looking for a "successful" alternative.

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Old 04-15-05, 02:27 PM   #12
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You want my Rhac fruit 'n' yogurt recipe? That top secret recipe that so far I've only divulged to
several thousand people?

I posted the recipe in this forum back in the fall, but that's when I still added CGD to the mix
once in a while. I don't bother with that anymore. It was mostly for a change in flavour and any
extra nutrients it might add, but I found that a lot of geckos didn't like it, so there was quite a
bit of it wasted (well, not wasted exactly, but by morning I'd take it out and let my dog, a glutton
of a MinPin, eat it

I'm somewhat lazy today, so I'm going to copy/paste what I posted somewhere else in cyberspace
instead of typing it up fresh.

My typical recipe makes roughly 6 ice cube trays, but it can vary depending on the type of tray
you're using. Since I have at least 20 fruit-eating adult Rhacs at any time and who knows how many
babies, it's worth making a big batch at once. You can use less of everything if you don't have a
lot of Rhacs (yet, but you will soon ) and the mix freezes well so don't worry about making too
much. Since the ingredients are also human food grade, you can eat some of it yourself if you don't
add the CGD, it's great slightly frozen, reminds me of a milkshake.

I've used this recipe since I first got Rhacs back in '96. I start with 1 large can (approx. 800 g./
28 oz.) of unsweetened mango pulp (plain mango will do since it all goes into the blender later), 1
small to medium very ripe banana, 1 or 2 soft pears, 3-4 figs, and one or two other fruits
in season. They love peach, mango, pear, banana, dates, figs, grapes and berries - especially
strawberries. Just about any fruit will do, but try not to use citrus fruit. All the fruit is
blended until smooth and then poured into a mixing bowl. I then add low fat or fat-free yogurt,
strawberry, mixed berries or peach. They have no problems digesting the lactose since the bacteria
in the yogurt culture convert it to a safe form for them. A one serving size container of yogurt is
added to the fruit mix and stirred until blended. Pour it all into ice cube trays and freeze.

Each batch is a bit different since I use whatever fruit is in season, so they get different
flavours throughout the year. I try to have 2 different batches going at a time and alternate with
each feeding. To give them a change every once in a while, I add something to the thawed cubes
before feeding. I'll sprinkle some pollen over the top, mix in a different blended fruit from the
other batch in the freezer, maybe add a bit of different yogurt flavour or some finely chopped figs.


Some batches also get a half a jar of CGD added while still in the blender, but that also means
adding a bit of water to keep it at a lickable consistency. Don't add too much CGD or it will be too
thick, and they might not bother eating it if they have to bite and chew it. This is one of my
least favourite variations, mostly because not all of my Rhacs will eat the CGD. I think I've pretty
well eliminated this version in favour of just feeding plain CGD to those who will touch it.

Feedings alternate with crickets/bugs of some kind 2 or sometimes 3 times a week, this fruit mix 2-3
times a week, some don't even bother with bugs much once they get to liking the fruit mix. Mix the
supplement (like Miner-all ) in when feeding if you can, that way you have more control over who
gets how much and when. It can be added before freezing, I just prefer to add it before serving.
Breeding females need more than lone males, babies need more than lone males etc. That's why I add
the Miner-all and vitamins when I feed the mix. Also, not every fruit/yogurt feeding gets
supplements. I skip one here and there, just feed it plain.

For cresties (and other Rhacs) who eat mostly the yogurt/fruit mix and barely touch crickets, I
don't dust the crickets and other bugs. They get their supplements in the fruit. Since they almost
always eat every drop of fruit, I know how much they've gotten. For those who eat bugs as easily as
fruit, I alternate, sometimes I go long stretches of supplements in fruit only, no dusted bugs.
Other times I'll do the dusted bugs, nothing in the fruit. All told, they do get supplements, but
not in and on every food item. The batches of fruit with CGD never had supplements added at all, I
just dusted the bugs when I used them. However, I don't do the mix with CGD anymore, or at least
don't have any intentions to use it since most of my adults didn't like it as much, and the
acceptance rate with all Rhacs in general wasn't as good.
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Old 04-15-05, 10:29 PM   #13
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I went out and bought all the ingredients today for your recipe Hilde. I couldn't find the unsweetened mango pulp anywhere, so I just bought very ripe mangos instead.

I blended it all up...half for me, and half for my geckos

So far I love it...Mmmmm :flick:
I don't know about the cresties yet...
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Old 04-16-05, 06:28 AM   #14
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well by my learning experience raising cresties, I have a year old male that was fed babyfood/cgd, sometimes mixed, sometimes straight, and crickets a couple times a week, supplements added. he has been treated for MBD during this time and although I thought he was growing nicely, I now can compare him to two other cresties that I have had for a few short weeks that were maybe a couple weeks old when I got them. They get crickets several times a week AND babyfood/cgd mix every night. They are growing fast and fat. but is fat healthy? anyways, what we feed them does seem to make a difference. I have a male that is near to 3 yrs old. for his first 18 months his first owner fed him plain yogurt only. he was healthy looking when I got him over a year ago and he is still nice and healthy looking now on babyfood/cgd and crickets a couple times a week although I never hardly see him eat crickets. so what am I trying to say as I ramble on? well that maybe what they get there first weeks of life makes a difference when they are adults. same as people. I am definately an advocate for more protein in their early weeks.
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Old 04-21-05, 12:03 AM   #15
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Ah where to start??? I'll just go through the posts in order. Much of what has been said has been overlapped in different posts so if I don’t address it initially, just keep reading. I apologize for not replying sooner but I've been tired/busy/lazy

Babysweet:
True, Allen tested the diet himself and I understand your concern about this but IMO someone with Allen's rep and large collection, I can’t see him trying to pull a fast one. After all his animals and his rep would take a massive hit.

Quote:
What I'm saying is that it's silly to argue that as hobby herpers we're incapable of providing an appropriate diet consisting of FRESH foods. Commercial pet foods on the market today are sold under the idea that by NOT feeding them you're doing your pets a disservice, and I just DON'T agree with that.
I completely agree with you on this. I don’t believe that CGD is a requirement in order to keep cresties healthy. However with that being said, trying to balance a fruit puree diet with supplements can be difficult. This is what makes CGD a valuable option. The suggestion of not mixing BABYFOOD with CGD is a concern dealing with the sugar contents that babyfood contains. To be honest, I have no idea about the balance when you add fresh fruit to the mix. However that being said, I wouldn't personally mix the two together on a particular feeding but I would offer them on different feeding days. I didn't quite get that impression from CGD marketing Although I can see how some can interpret it like that.

You are correct, I don’t feed exclusively CGD but it does make a large portion of their diet. I do offer insects once in a while with the odd smashed up fruit. If I truly felt that I was jeopardizing the lives/health of my geckos, I wouldn't use this diet.


DragnDrop:

I understand what you are saying about the chances of something missing from the diet are greater than the chance that the diet is complete. However, it seems that Allen is having tremendous success with the diet with his massive colony. This is why I believe the diet works and works well.


Quote:
That measure of success is useless. Look at the 'hatch rate' in puppy mills. Those dogs manage to 'hatch out' many offspring, does that mean they're being properly fed?
Im not sure why you think its useless I believe Allen was comparing hatch rates between a diet of fruitmix with supplements and a diet of CGD. With that being said I think it’s a completely useful measure. I asked about hatch rates and CGD on Allen's forum. He was honest and genuine in his post. To check it out click here

Babysweet:

Quote:
I know exactly what you're going through with the exams... hubby is taking his computer networking exams this week. I don't think I've seen him sleep in about 12 days. You have my sympathies!
Exams suck, Im glad im done for the year

Quote:
1.) Again with the conflict of Interest. Does AC Reptiles not take care of all of Rapashy's cresty sales? 'nuff said.
I think this post was before Anthony made that arrangement but to be honest im not sure.

Quote:
2.) His argument regarding feeding crickets and babyfood as being just as "unnatural" as CGD... come on, now... A fruit is a fruit is a fruit. Sure, they're different fruits, with different composition, and different pros and cons... but they're still live fruit, as part of a varied diet. You simply can not say that Apple Vs. Orange is the same as Peach Vs. powdered whey mix. I realize that we can't mimic the wild cresty diet exactly, but the fact is that I'm going to come closer by varying the foods in the diet than by limiting myself to one food item.
I don’t agree with this either. I said along the lines of what I think but not exactly.


Quote:
One more note (yeah, yeah, I know I said three.. ). AC even says right in the post that two of his criteria for choosing a diet for his cresties are colour and growth rate. Colour and growth rate? Sorry, I want health and longevity. I fear the day when someone refers to me as a "Breeder" before all else. These guys are my pets. Simple as that. Yep, I'm going to breed them. But I can't imagine getting so caught up in the potential income that I would forget what should always come first... the well being of the creature in your care.
Harsh, I cant speak for Anthony but I would assume that he cares for the animals he owns. I don't think he would sacrifice the longevity of his animals either to make a buck, after all even if that were the case, the longevity of his animals would be an asset. I don't think that just because some one is labelled a "breeder," they forget the well-being of the creatures they own.

Quote:
Final note: I can assure you all that the colour of my future cresties will be due to their impeccable breeding and care, NOT due to the pigments I put in their dish at night
I believe the colour is not due to the diet. The potential is within the animal already. I read (not sure if it was on that kingsnake thread or another) that when Allen took some wild caught specimens after a while on the initial diet given they lost their colour but after a while on the CGD they regained their colour. And before you reply to this I know you are going to say its about marketing

DragnDrop:

Quote:
Did you note the part where he says he feeds live prey including roaches (mentioned in one of his follow-up posts) to his geckos because he likes to have them grow faster? And the part about the CGD being adequate for the average pet?
Yes I did read that. However Allen does maintain his breeding stock completely on CGD. Here is a direct quote from page 41.

"Allen Repashy's breeding colony is maintained exclusively on this diet with very good results in terms of health, colour, weight and breeding."

Once again, support for the diet.

Quote:
So this is a complete balanced diet suitable for being the sole food? Why do they grow faster when fed bugs then?
I'll admit that they grow faster on a diet with insects as well, so does the rhac book. Does anyone know the growth rate of cresties in the wild??? I don’t but Im sure this info would be useful.

StickyToes:

Quote:
The idea that babyfood takes away from the nutritional content of the food is absurd unless you are strictly feeding the diet and babyfood mix, but even then if you were to add one part CGD to 2 parts babyfood you would still have the same amount of CGD irregardless of whether or not you used H2O. Yes there could be extra sugars that could potentially lead the geckos to store them as fat, and overtime this could lead to obese geckos that would have very little breeding success, but once again you would be pretty hard pressed to find any breeder that follows this method exclusively. It still doesn't alter the fact that the content of the food mix is still one part CGD plus all the extras that may be in the fruit that definitely won't be in the water. As Hilde has pointed out already, even Repashy and AC don't feed the diets exclusively.
Perhaps thats was the argument feeding the diet with babyfood exclusively but when I heard that Allen mentioned it, I made a mental note. Although Anthony doesn't feed his cresties exclusively CGD, Allen does feed his BREEDING colony exclusively on CGD. I capitalized breeding to make a point that perhaps it’s not his entire colony and that his younger geckos do receive insects or fruits. Who knows?

Quote:
Steve - Do you have a link that you could post that would direct us to Allen's hatch rates. I have the April 98 article where he gives the averages for 5 females and their hatch success rates for 96, 3 of which were on his mix of fruit babyfood and meat mixed with a few other ingredients, and I would like to compare then and now. I think it could go a long way to speak volumes about changes in success with just a powdered diet.
Allen didn't give any figures but the link is listed above.

Quote:
After reading through the posts about this on the other forum I have to say that I was surprised at the level of arrogance that was displayed on several issues by one person in particular.
That was the entertaining part I can't speak for Anthony so I can’t comment on what you have quoted.

Everyone:

Im not going to argue against that variety is better because this is true. However with the success Allen is having, It is a suitable as a diet for cresties. Like I said earlier, I do feed other items (looking for lobster roaches, let me know )to my cresties but CDG is a primary component.

Crestie keepers are doing different things and having success using different methods. I have seen Hilde diet in action with Betty's cresties and it’s working great from what I can see and hear. It also taste good too. The Rhac book mentions different diets not just one, so I don’t get the impression that if you aren't feeding CGD to your animals you are doing them a disservice. Different things work for different people and if they are working for both you and your animals, I don’t see a reason for making a switch unless the changes of improvement are drastic.

Im in the on the New Caledonia trip
Lets send the first all Canadian crew down there for some research!!!
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