Snakes ARE affectionate

[Nuxodom]

Originally Posted by sophiedufort

I understand your position, and really appreciate your comments.
Now you caught my curiosity. I've never seen a Hispaniola boa. I will look it up.
Just to clarify a couple of things: As I said before, I handle my snakes every day. Probably that's why they got so used to me, and clearly don't fear me at all. Handling them so much also gave me the opportunity to notice a lot more things. They have unique personalities. Some will prefer to cuddle, others love to rest around my neck, or my husband's. One of them is starting a coordinated series of muscle contractions that feels very much like a massage on my neck. Weirdly enough, she only does it when I have a migraine. Coincidence? I don't know. All I know is that she never did it when I was feeling well. Some people will laugh at my observation, but I am merely stating a fact, something that actually happens to me. Other signs of closeness that my snakes display: pressing their head against my face, along my nose. I kiss them on the side of their head, and when I stop they come back for more, poking at my lips then resting their head over my mouth inviting me to continue.
Also, thank you for your comment about the enclosure temperature (anxiety separation paragraph). I do check the enclosure conditions often enough. I make sure that everything is functional and working well.

When my big girl wants attention, while she is wrapped around my neck, will sometimes reach up, put the back of her head on my nose, and wait for a chin rub. After about a 5-minute rub, she'll turn around, place her chin on my nose, and fall asleep.

She's funny when she is asleep - different than the rest of my snakes. If I touch her, she'll push me away like "I'm sleeping! Leave me alone!"

[eminart]

Originally Posted by sophiedufort

I am pasting here my reply to Lady_bug's comment, as I believe it is relevant to your comment as well: "With respect, it is well known that any intelligent being is capable of emotion. Intelligence is defined as the capacity for learning, reasoning, understanding, and similar forms of mental activity; aptitude in grasping truths, relationships, facts, meanings, etc. While this may be limited and primitive in reptiles, and by no means comparable to other species, including humans, it doesn't make it any less plausible."

So, the answer to my question is "no", you can't link to a peer-reviewed scientific article discussing findings on snakes exhibiting love.

I get what you're saying and what you want to believe. I just don't agree with you, nor does science. The article you keep posting doesn't call reptiles intelligent animals. It says they're MORE intelligent than we might have previously thought. That doesn't put them on the level of primates.

I've kept reptiles since the early 80's. Not once has one loved me. Most tolerated me, and learned to accept my presence. Some even learned that my presence sometimes benefited them, like my Testudo Kleinmanni who rushes to the front of her table when I approach, hoping greens might appear on the magic rock. But, if I died tomorrow she wouldn't feel any sense of loss. My D. couperi will sit on my lap on the couch and sniff around on me with his tongue. He's lost most of his fear of me. I'm warm. He's content to sit around and sense his environment. He'd eat me if I were 4" tall. I absolutely adore him. My hawks, which are (legally) trapped from the wild, learn within a few days to come to me for food. Within a few weeks they'll fly free and come to me from 100 yards across a field. But, they do it for their own reasons and instincts to obtain food. They follow me through the woods and fields when they could fly away. But they don't love me. They do it because they quickly adapt to the availability of easy meals. It's just conditioned response.

Anyway, I think you're way off base. Anthropomorphizing animal behavior never fails to annoy the hell out of me. But, I think you've gotten your answer. Almost no one here agrees with you (nor does science). But, you can believe what you want. We can all be friends.

[RAD House]

From a completely evolutionary view there is no such thing as an interesting warm jungle gym. Anything as large and warm as a human would be seen as a threat by most if not all snakes in the wild. The fact that they learn to trust you shows something beyond instinct.

[lady_bug87]

Originally Posted by MesoCorney

From a completely evolutionary view there is no such thing as an interesting warm jungle gym. Anything as large and warm as a human would be seen as a threat by most if not all snakes in the wild. The fact that they learn to trust you shows something beyond instinct.

Sun baked rockscape. warm junfle floor, mammal dens.

Also it's not just instinct. They know they have experienced the same set of.smells and didn't die. Nothing ate them. Again intelligence doesn't equal love.

[sophiedufort]

Originally Posted by eminart

Almost no one here agrees with you (nor does science). But, you can believe what you want. We can all be friends.

I don't expect agreement, this is not why I joined this forum. I value other people's opinions, although I may feel they are wrong. I probably got heated up when some members were too crude in their replies, but otherwise I'm perfectly fine with dissenting opinions. Of course, we can all be friends

[RAD House]

Eminart no has specifically studied love in snakes as our understanding of their brains is not even close to being developed to that point. We are now just beginning to understand love in the biological sense in humans. She is stating her opinion. Can you find a peer reviewed paper supporting that snakes have no ability to love? The answer is no don't bother looking.

[sophiedufort]

Originally Posted by MesoCorney

Eminart no has specifically studied love in snakes as our understanding of their brains is not even close to being developed to that point. We are now just beginning to understand love in the biological sense in humans. She is stating her opinion. Can you find a peer reviewed paper supporting that snakes have no ability to love? The answer is no don't bother looking.

Wonderfully said

[RAD House]

Excuse me lady bug I didn't think I needed to clarify I meant a living, breathing, warm jungle gym. If you agree they are more intelligent than people give them credit then whose to say that we know that they don't have the brain chemistry known as love. Please don't confuse what I am saying with that I believe my snakes love me like my future wife does.

[lady_bug87]

Originally Posted by MesoCorney

Excuse me lady bug I didn't think I needed to clarify I meant a living, breathing, warm jungle gym. If you agree they are more intelligent than people give them credit then whose to say that we know that they don't have the brain chemistry known as love. Please don't confuse what I am saying with that I believe my snakes love me like my future wife does.

What use would a solitary animal have for love? Or anything even remotely resembling it?

[eminart]

Originally Posted by MesoCorney

Eminart no has specifically studied love in snakes as our understanding of their brains is not even close to being developed to that point. We are now just beginning to understand love in the biological sense in humans. She is stating her opinion. Can you find a peer reviewed paper supporting that snakes have no ability to love? The answer is no don't bother looking.

I can't find a peer-reviewed article stating that dogs can't learn algebra either. Wonder why that is?

Also, have you ever heard of "burden of proof"? I'll summarize. If you make a positive claim (i.e. snakes love) then the burden is on you to prove that. Now, if you knew anything about debate, you'd counter by saying I'm making a positive claim that I know snakes do not love. But, you'd be failing to acknowledge that I'm simply following what all the evidence points toward, and the consensus of all scientific thought on the matter to this point.

[RAD House]

Child care, some snakes have been shown to exhibit this as earlier stated. Attraction to a mate no matter how fleeting. It I a misconception science is a field of certainties. I am only talking about possibilities.

[Derek Roddy]

Originally Posted by MesoCorney

Can you find a peer reviewed paper supporting that snakes have no ability to love?

Sure you can....it's called the evolution of the reptile brain and it exist in the form of 1000's of researchers worldwide who have studied the capabilities and advancements in reptile brains.

In fact, any paper you read on the subject will give you this information...if you understand what you are reading

D

[RAD House]

Eminart without actual studies no one is proving anything. This is just a discussion about opinions. You are talking about public perception not what science points to. Science points to that we do not understand snake brains very well.

[eminart]

Originally Posted by MesoCorney

Child care, some snakes have been shown to exhibit this as earlier stated. Attraction to a mate no matter how fleeting. It I a misconception science is a field of certainties. I am only talking about possibilities.

Nobody thinks science is a field of certainties. That is the beauty of science. It is always learning. That said, I don't expect them to discover that the earth is flat any time soon, just like I don't think they're going to find that snakes experience love despite the fact that such an emotion in a reptile would serve no evolutionary advantage.

What does it mean to only be talking about possibilities? Is that the same thing as saying you're fantasizing?

[RAD House]

Ok Derek I charge you to find just one that mentions snake love or even emotions. That should keep you from making ridiculous over generalized posts for a bit. I have to pick up dog poop.