30 Years of Reptiles - First Boa

[bigsnakegirl785]

Originally Posted by Wingbeats

Slower growth is healthier growth?

Sorry to randomly plop in on the discussion, but I'm new to snake-keeping and I hadn't heard this before. Why would growing more slowly initially be healthier? And how does one do this? (I'm assuming slowing down feeding or whatnot?) Does this apply to all boas, such as epicrates?

/torrent of questions

When I say that, I don't mean underfeeding them. I mean giving them a more natural, slower growth by using a more conservative feeding schedule. I also mean that power feeding, for any snake or reptile species, is extremely unhealthy and can lower life expectancy.

For boa constrictors especially, a much healthier grow pattern looks like this: 2'-3' at 1 year, 3'-4' at 2 years and 5'-5.5' at 3 years, with them reaching 6'+ in their later years of 4-6 years old. That growth will look much different for a "dwarf" boa constrictor, with them growing much slower and staying much smaller. They can also be a little smaller or a little bigger than those ranges and still be healthy as long as they are fed properly. After all, snakes all grow at their own rate. The feeding regimen can also be adjusted a bit depending on your individual.

A feeding regimen for slow-growing a boa looks like this:

Up to 1 year old: every 7-10 days
1-3 years old: 10-14 days
3+ years old: every 3-6 weeks

I've been using the above schedule for my BRB for about half the time I've had him, and he seems to be doing well. He's not underweight or overweight, and he's got very very good muscle tone. He's growing steadily and is about the same size as my BCI was at a year, although the BRB is about 9-10 months old. So I'd say he's growing well, and is about where you'd expect him to be despite being fed slightly less often.

[trailblazer295]

I've heard from various sources that snakes keeping growing until they die. Now of course a young snake isn't going to grow the same rate as 20yr old. But also I doubt snake keepers are measuring the length of a 10yr old to 15 20 etc to see if they gained a few inches. To be honest would anyone of us notice our 6ft+ snake gained a few inches over a decade, of course not. By that age and size you aren't measuring that. I haven't even seen many measure weight at the size which is more important from my limited knowledge then just length. Breeding aside most don't weigh their snakes unless they go on a hunger strike and are weighing to monitor health and weight loss. Which means it's very likely snakes do keep growing slowly and we simply don't notice and because you see them on a regular basis you don't notice the change.

[eminart]

Originally Posted by trailblazer295

I've heard from various sources that snakes keeping growing until they die. Now of course a young snake isn't going to grow the same rate as 20yr old. But also I doubt snake keepers are measuring the length of a 10yr old to 15 20 etc to see if they gained a few inches. To be honest would anyone of us notice our 6ft+ snake gained a few inches over a decade, of course not. By that age and size you aren't measuring that. I haven't even seen many measure weight at the size which is more important from my limited knowledge then just length. Breeding aside most don't weigh their snakes unless they go on a hunger strike and are weighing to monitor health and weight loss. Which means it's very likely snakes do keep growing slowly and we simply don't notice and because you see them on a regular basis you don't notice the change.

Yes, it is a well-known fact that snakes continue growing throughout their lives. Actually, as far as I know, all reptiles do this. They just don't grow nearly as quickly once they reach adulthood.

[Wingbeats]

Huh, thanks for the answer! I've been feeding every 5 days so far...probably no harm in going to a 7-day schedule for my little lady RB then (with the nice side effect of lowering cost of food, hahaha)

[Snakesitter]

And less poop to clean. ;-)

I feed my baby rainbows weekly, juvies every other week, and adults every third week.

[bigsnakegirl785]

Imo I don't believe snakes grow their entire lives. There have been no studies on it that I have ever been able to find. With no scientific proof, I'm not gonna believe it. Shedding =/= growth. They shed to replace dead skin cells as they get older.

As much as personal experience is worth, my bp hasn't grown even a millimeter since he was 2-3 years old. He's now turning 9.

[eminart]

Silver spoons and snake body sizes: prey availability early in life influences long-term growth rates of free-ranging pythons - Madsen - 2008 - Journal of Animal Ecology - Wiley Online Library

Large snakes may offer good model systems in this respect. They exhibit indeterminate growth through their (potentially long) life (Andrews 1982), and a single population of such species thus contains individuals of a very wide range of body sizes (e.g. Fitch 1999). In the present study we present data on growth of a large tropical snake, the water python (Liasis fuscus) and discuss how annual variation in prey availability affects individual, year-to-year variation in growth and ultimately adult snake body sizes.

[eminart]

double post

[bigsnakegirl785]

Originally Posted by eminart

Silver spoons and snake body sizes: prey availability early in life influences long-term growth rates of free-ranging pythons - Madsen - 2008 - Journal of Animal Ecology - Wiley Online Library

From what I could gather, that article is saying the availability of prey in younger life will allow them to grow for longer. Meaning, in the wild they have periods of famine, and to make up for those periods of famine, they continue to grow late into their lives (or throughout their lives). What it does not discuss is what happens when a snake has plenty of food available steadily throughout their lives with no famine periods.

What that could show is that a snake is set to reach a pre-determined length, and if the famines did not allow them to reach that size, they will continue growing during the feast periods until they reach that size. Which may or may not take their entire lives.

This does not support that snakes grow their entire lives, just that under certain conditions they may.

[eminart]

The article actually says they experience indeterminate growth.

indeterminate growth | biology | Britannica.com

[bigsnakegirl785]

Originally Posted by eminart

The article actually says they experience indeterminate growth.

indeterminate growth | biology | Britannica.com

I'm...really doubtful a dictionary definition supports what you're saying. They can get facts wrong, and say that snakes are poisonous rather than venomous. Although the words grammatically are interchangeable, biologically venomous and poisonous are different.

Not to mention the definition almost guaranteed to be taken out of context.

[eminart]

Originally Posted by bigsnakegirl785

I'm...really doubtful a dictionary definition supports what you're saying. They can get facts wrong, and say that snakes are poisonous rather than venomous. Although the words grammatically are interchangeable, biologically venomous and poisonous are different.

Not to mention the definition almost guaranteed to be taken out of context.

But, I just linked a scientific study, with sources, that states the snakes they're discussing exhibit indeterminate growth. Who are you saying got the definition wrong?

They exhibit indeterminate growth through their (potentially long) life (Andrews 1982),

[bigsnakegirl785]

Originally Posted by eminart

But, I just linked a scientific study, with sources, that states the snakes they're discussing exhibit indeterminate growth. Who are you saying got the definition wrong?

That is one sentence taken out of the rest of the article. The article studied animals in the wild with periods of famine, and even said in the main article that prey availability affects growth. They may be considering the potential to grow their entire lives as having indeterminate growth, or maybe I misunderstood some points, but as I discussed above what I read was very different from saying they have indeterminate growth.

What happens when a snake has plenty of food throughout their lives, with no period of famine?

[trailblazer295]

Originally Posted by bigsnakegirl785

What happens when a snake has plenty of food throughout their lives, with no period of famine?

Such a long term scientific study couldn't be done in the wild as nature doesn't have a buffet of endless supply of meals at regular intervals. I get the point you're trying to make, see both sides of the coin and compare results but such an environment couldn't be done in the wild and conducting a long term study with captive animals, to get a animal base of enough animals would be extremely hard to coordinate as you'd be dealing with many different private keepers.

[psychocircus]

I believe growth can be continuous for around a decade (and again a very slowed rate). There have also been several cases of underfed animals growing significant amounts several years into their lifespans. If growth is continuous for 15+ years it would be so negligible that it isn't significant. While the stories say continued growth, the tape measures do not.

Note, I used the word believe. IME there isn't much scientific information regarding the topic.