Pine Shavings

[beanersmysav]

When I was at the show a majority of the people I asked what the reccomended for bedding for my corns listed pine shaving as a possibility. However as I've done more and more research I find Pine Shavings are toxic. Is this true? For the time being I've removed the shavings. I feed them in a seperate container so theres no chance of the ingesting the shavings anyways, but has anyone else successfully kept their snake on pine shavings without any bad effects. I'm going to be looking for aspen shavings for the time being, but I bought a huge bag of pine so I'd like to use it unless of course its toxic.

[vanderkm]

Any aromatic wood has the potential to have volatile compounds that off gas from it and that may cause problems for snakes. Cedar is widely reported to be harmful to snakes, but some snake breeders have kept cornsnakes on kiln dried pine shavings through multiple generations without any reported problems. Apparently kiln drying reduces the chance of problems.

In my opinion, aspen is well established to be safe and even though I don't think it is as absorbant as pine, when we use wood shavings, we use aspen. I prefer Carefresh type wood products when snakes are in tubs with belly heat, but for our corns that are in tanks with overhead heat, the Carefresh seems too drying, so we use aspen.

mary v.

[Invictus]

The problem with sooftwoods is not the gases, but rather the resins themselves. Cedar contains a high amount of phenol resin, which is what gives it the aromatic smell, desireable in log cabins and fireplaces for us human folk. Pine is also a softwood, but the kiln drying dries up the phenol resins, which are the toxic constituent. I'd say use caution - Aspen is hardwood, and contains no resins. Pine MAY or MAY NOT - it's a risk. If it has a very distinct "wood smell", don't use it. If it has a dusty smell to it, it may be ok... but really, why risk it?

[beanersmysav]

My thoughts exactly

[vanderkm]

Ah right Ken - resin not vapors!! Knew it was something that the conifer type trees had in their wood. Either way - best to be safe not sorry.

mary v.

[Stockwell]

I wonder why pine snakes aren't extinct.. They live in the shed needles which are full of stinky resin
I've kept snakes on pine shavings , the same type I keep mice on.
I read all this stuff about pine but wonder if any real research has been done. I've certainly raised and bred snakes on it with no problem.. I currenly have some snakes on Alpha chip which is also a pine chip lab bedding. They reproduced this year, and I have seen no problems.
I generally agree with the better safe than sorry philosophy for most pet keepers, but I really wonder about some of the common things herpers are now terrified of.
I think I might actually have to try raising a corn snake on cedar next year, just to see whether there is any truth to all these reports of toxic effects.
Is there anyone out there that has actually tried keeping snakes on cedar, or has heard any first hand negative reports.... I think I might have kept snakes on cedar many years ago but I can't remember.
One thing that I am positive of is that I kept my entire collection on what is known as "western bark" which is sequoia and redwood, both conifers... It always smelled great in the herp room, and I used this substrate exclusively all through the late 80's and 90's. I produced thousands of snakes on that substrate. I only stopped using it because it got expensive and brings in flies.

[Jeff_Favelle]

They live in the shed needles which are full of stinky resin

Compare the air flow/air exchange to the great outdoors and to a bin in your rack and you'll know why, LOL!

[Linds]

Originally posted by Stockwell

I read all this stuff about pine but wonder if any real research has been done.

I'll see if I can find it. I recall reading a paper in the past that involved lab results. If I remember correctly, the subjects (rats and mice) exhibited altered size and weight of certain organs as well as decreased liver function.

I ran a quick search through google and found a few things. Of course they relate to rodents, as no labs seem particularily interested in the effects of reptiles (since they are so different from people). I think most scientific testing on reptiles and amphibians is generally ecological/environmental effects, and even then, I still have not heard of any actual testing, but rather surveys of animals collected over certain areas. Maybe someone else can shed better light on that.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...&dopt=Abstract

I also know that I have observed differences in rats when going from a bedding containing no phenol to one containing phenol, and vice versa. I've had animals begin wheezing and/or sneezing and/or developing crust around the nose. Many 'pet' breeders have noticed extended lifespans in their animals once having switched from pine as well. While it is a minor threat in small doses and can be expelled from the liver (as is half the things we use on a daily basis), phenol can be absorbed through skin, and I'm confident that prolonged exposure would have some adverse results.

Now I know it isn't reptiles, but if it affects mammals in such a way, I wouldn't be willing to risk it. Even if the differences aren't huge, maybe I could get slightly larger litters, or a few extra years out of my animals?

[Stockwell]

hummm..thanks Linds.. you know if cedar is so bad for mammals I wonder why it is still so widely sold for pet rodents?? I think every Walmart in North America sells Cedar shavings in the small animal department, and yes, you can smell it from 4 isles away.
And come to think of it, cedar is used to keep moths out of clothing in closets isn't it... that's rather interesting
Cedar is expensive as well as endangered, so I wonder where the Cedar shavings thing started and what keeps it going. I imagine humans buy it because it smells nice, but you would think it would be harmful to us as well.
Maybe this is some conspiracy to sell more hamsters, because they die quicker but how come the humane-iacs aren't all over them if that's the case? And don't labs still keep rodents on Pine??

[Tim_Cranwill]

Originally posted by Stockwell
humane-iacs

That's a clever name. I like it! LOL

[Scales Zoo]

We've always used pine shavings. The brand we have smells a lot less "piny" than some I've smelled.

The thing with things like this is, how are we to know how harmful it is for our snakes. Maybe they'll only live to be 15, instead of 20. I know a few people that have kept the same snakes on pine for 20 plus years, and those snakes are still living.

How many years does bleach residue take off their lives? What about regular nix treatments? Until we've kept the same snakes for 12-15 years, do we know that all of our methods are all 100% safe.

Ryan

[Invictus]

Roy - When I worked at the evil pet store, a guy brought in a boa constrictor that hadn't held down a meal since he brought it home. He had it in a small container, and as soon as I opened it, the smell of cedar wafted out, and I knew right away what the problem was. He removed the cedar shavings from the boa's enclosure and put it on paper towel for a week, then fed him again. It did seem to fix the problem.

As for pine, I do kind of agree with you though.... I think pine just got 'lumped in' with cedar because they are both softwood. But certainly a lot of people have kept snakes on pine with no apparent problems.

[Manitoban Herps]

I have used pine for some of my snakes and they haven't had problems, mine too doesn't have much of a scent..

[Jeff_Favelle]

hummm..thanks Linds.. you know if cedar is so bad for mammals I wonder why it is still so widely sold for pet rodents??

Easy. It works against smell. People that know nothing, nor CARE to know nothing about the animals don't worry about the phenols and extractives. It kills the smell and they LOVE that aspect. So that's why cedar chips sell well. Why did hot rocks sell so well in the 70's and 80's? They sucked and killed animals. But they looked cool and were dead easy to set up.

Cedar is expensive as well as endangered, so I wonder where the Cedar shavings thing started and what keeps it going.

Ha ha not picking on ya Unkie, but the cedar used in cedar chips for small animals is NOT a true cedar. It is either a Thuja (Thuja plicata aka western Red-cedar) or a Yellow-cedar (note the hyphen, which indicates its not a true cedar) which is in the genus Chamaecyparis.


NONE of these are true cedars (genus Cedrus, yet they all, along with Junipers have the most toxic phenols and extractives.

I have used pine for some of my snakes and they haven't had problems

I know people that have smoked for 40 years yet they are fine. Does that make smoking a good thing? Just because it HASN'T happened, doesn't mean it WON'T.

[Jeff_Favelle]

We've always used pine shavings. The brand we have smells a lot less "piny" than some I've smelled.

The thing with things like this is, how are we to know how harmful it is for our snakes. Maybe they'll only live to be 15, instead of 20. I know a few people that have kept the same snakes on pine for 20 plus years, and those snakes are still living.

This is one I don't understand at all. So you have a material, that you aren't sure does any harm, but that you aren't sure is good either? And MANY suitable alternatives exist. So given the choice between a SAFE alternative, and a material that "we aren't sure if its harmful", the choice for the "maybe bad, maybe good" material is made?

I don't get it. I'm not preaching, but if there was a product that was "maybe harmful" and a product that was not harmful, I'd just choose the safe route and leave questionable stuff alone. I could see if there was no alternatives or choices, sure. But there is.

To each their own, just my thoughts, and no one else's.