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Old 09-07-12, 06:32 AM   #1
Dracorex5
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An aspiring keeper with many curiosities

I have been interested in venomous snakes since i was a little girl. Ive kept reptiles since i was eight, all hoping that one day I'd get the snakes of my dreams one day with eneogh practice. Im 17 now, and keep an assortment of basic snakes. Ive finally decided to start taking the steps to start training for a venomous reptile, as i know it really isnt "buy a rattlesnake and have at it" kind of hobby! I have questions though.... I have TONS to learn! I plan on making a career out of animals, what id really like to do is find a partner one day to open a 24 hour exotic and rescue animal hospital. Dream big! So after a few months lurking here, i finally made an account and am ready to start asking questions!

I plan on starting small and learning to use the tools with an aggressive nonvenomous snake. What snake best simulates a venomous reptiles attitudes and habits without being venomous? Ive heard a lot of opinions, but none horribly professional.... I had been pondering false water cobras, but have quilly found they are in fact venomous! Any ideas?

What kind of training an licencing do you need to provide venom for industry? Id like to make my hobby something more for people, and providing venom for medicine sounds like a good way to do it, but DEADLY. How can i start preparing now for such a career path?

Whats the bet beginner hot? Gotta start small and work upwards of course! Ive been told copperheads and certain rattlesnakes are good... But i know little. Anything helps!

Thank you all for your time, i hope to learn a lot from this community!
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Old 09-07-12, 07:56 AM   #2
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Re: An aspiring keeper with many curiosities

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Old 09-07-12, 08:11 AM   #3
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Re: An aspiring keeper with many curiosities

Welcome!

Just curious, what state are you in? Definitely be familiar with your local laws concerning the ownership of hots. Some require permits and/or mentorship (something I suggest seeking out before acquiring a hot anyway!).

Here's an insightful article that may give you some perspective on the issue. Not necessarily meant to discourage you (or maybe it is), but just to instill the gravity of this aspect of the hobby you are wanting access to.

K-12 of Venomous Keeping « Student of the Reptile

Personally, I am very leery of anyone who wants to get into venomous snakes and one of the first questions they ask is "What's the best beginner hot?" It gives me the impression you are too eager. You should be focused on finding a mentor, someone who has been keeping hots for many years and is respected in the venomous/herpetological community. After that, focus on your set-up; your hot room, your bite protocol in case you do get bit, how to use a hook, etc. The LAST thing you should be thinking about is what species of venomous snake you are going to buy first.
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Old 09-07-12, 08:37 AM   #4
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Re: An aspiring keeper with many curiosities

Hello DracoreX and welcome to the forum. I took the plunge into hot keeping about a year and a half ago, after 7+ years of non-venomous snake keeping. I can tell you that there is no snake that will completely prepare you for the deadly responsibility of keeping venomous snakes- they are in a class all their own and unpredictable. However, there are certain non-ven species that can be moderately decent practice, depending on what type of hot you want to own.

First off, I commend you for asking questions and looking for training and practice before buying a hot....that is the proper way to go about it and I love seeing people ask questions and think long and hard before diving in. It's a big risk and a big responsibility, and you can never be careful enough. A mentor would be your best bet; however, it will likely be hard to find one until you turn 18. You are still a minor at 17, and therefore very few keepers will be likely to take the risk of you getting hurt under their watch. However, you should ask around at local reptile expos and be active on venomous forums to look for people who might help you.

My mentor lives about an hour from me, and I get to work with his animals once or twice a month. I have my own, but I am grateful for the extra practice and training I am continuously receiving with him. Working with a seasoned, experienced keeper can really help you highlight your areas of weakness and (relatively) safely work to strengthen them. I am not sure which state you live in, so I don't know where to point you other than forums to look for a mentor.
As for licensing/permits, it is different in every state. Some states, like PA where I live, do not require ANY license or permits, and pretty much anyone can go out and buy a venomous snake. I would much prefer they require licenses and some extent of training to weed out irresponsible people who just want a hot because it's "cool."
Other states ban them completely, and others require various licenses/permits or a certain number of hours of training under a licensed mentor (Florida requires 1000 hours of work under a mentor, with detailed records kept).
You should be able to find information on your state, and local, regulations on the Fish and Wildlife website, and your city's municipal website under the codes section. Most rural small towns do not care, but you must be sure. You don't want to end up with hundreds or thousands of dollars of fines later on.

Now, moving on to good "practice" species. Well, as I said, there isn't any non-ven that will truly mimic what it's like to have a venomous snake, but there are some species that can help you hone the handling skills you will need with various venomous snakes. Which species depends on which venomous species you want to keep.
For people who desire elapids (cobras, mambas), I would suggest mean, wild-caught red tailed green rat snake, or even better yet, a Spilotes pullatus (tiger rat snake). I have a LTC Spilotes that is convinced she is a cobra. She will flatten her neck, rear up, and she is lightning fast and wants to bite. Learning to hook and tail her without being nailed got me to where my cobra isn't all that bad to work with. I would say the Spilotes is faster and more aggressive in many ways, although a bite from her is no biggie and a bite from Shelby would be the end.
If you are looking to get into arboreal viperids, a green tree python or Amazon tree boa is a good practice species. The ATB will be smaller and quicker, and can be hardier in captivity, but both are good. I'd kept GTPs, ATBs, and ETBs for 6 years before I got a bush viper and an eyelash viper, so the vipers were almost identical in movement/behavior. You will have to keep in mind, though, that an arboreal viper can strike a longer proportion of its body than a python/boa can. For example, my bush vipers routinely throw their entire body at me, holding onto a branch only by the last few centimeters of tail. A GTP or ATB would usually only strike 1/3 to 1/2 its body length....so you have to be aware of your vipers' abilities and make sure you're out of strike range. You cannot tail arboreal vipers- they are far too agile and can easily whip back around to nail you....so you must get really good with one hook and two hooks (one in each hand).

Rattlesnakes and terrestrial vipers can be as varied as the weather....some are ambush hunters, and they tend to slow and still, but can explode with speed and agility when they are hungry or angry (rhinos, Gaboons, and the like). For these, a foul-tempered blood python would probably be the best practice, although it will not really be like these guys. For rattlers, copperheads, and the like, keeping a variety of other quick, ill-tempered terrestrial snakes can help you (most boas, pythons, colubrids will help you pick up hooking and dodging skills, but will not really behave like a hot).

False water cobras are rear-fanged venomous. They are not terribly dangerous to humans, although a severe bite can cause swelling, blistering and flu-like symptoms for several weeks. Most bites result only in a slightly excessive bleeding time and mild swelling. Rear-fanged snakes have poor venom delivery and they need to hold on and chew the venom into you. That being said, I've had FWCs, and they were nothing like my cobra. They might be fair practice for rattlers or the like, but my FWC was docile and generally not very quick.

As for providing venom for industry, a private keeper cannot really do it. There needs to be USDA and FWS licensing of your facility and you would need to keep hundreds of snakes to make it worth your time and money. For most antivenins, you need dozens and dozens of venom samples to produce a single vial of antivenin. Also, you stand a MUCH greater risk of being bitten when you are milking venomous snakes, so I would not think that planning to provide venom samples should be something that you even consider. If you are set on it, you would need to look into going to work for a venom bank. That's pretty much the only way I see it possible.

Now, on to good "first hots.".....there aren't any. Honest. Now, that doesn't mean that I don't think people should keep hots, just that I don't feel that there are any that are that much less dangerous than others. There are certain things I would never suggest that anyone own as a first venomous snake- any of the Naja species, Western diamondback rattler (too aggressive), Eastern diamondback rattler (too big), and Gaboon or rhino vipers (too unpredictable).
I own a pair of juvenile Southern copperheads, and every single time that I have to clean their cages, the little buggers give me a run for my money. They are squirmy and lightning fast and do not hook well at all. Coppers are very nervous, high-strung snakes, so they can be a handful. Many people downplay the seriousness of copperhead evenomation; in the US, bites from them have significantly greater morbidity than rattler bites, because hospitals are reluctant to give antivenin. "Oh, it's only a copperhead bite." So people end up with permanent or very long-lasting nerve and tissue damage. Don't take them lightly.
Some of the rattler species are less toxic and tend to be more docile....things like speckled rattlers and Panamint rattlers would be ok first rattlers. They probably wouldn't be a horrible choice for first hots, as long as you had solid training. I personally think that arboreal viperids are probably the easiest transition for most people. They tend to hook very nicely, as they are instinctual tree dwellers, and a hook to them is like a branch. They can be hook climbers though, so you have to be ready with a second hook to keep them away from you. Eyelash vipers are the most readily available and well-studied, and bites can be treated with the same antivenin used for native US crotalids. Eyelash bites are not pleasant, and can result in the loss of a digit, but they are not as likely to kill you as a diamondback bite. My fiance bought a baby eyelash viper, and that was the first hot in the house. Shortly after, I bought a horned bush viper. She was only about 10 inches long, but utterly vile; she was great. I love bush vipers, but there is no antivenin and they can be fatal.

Well, I'll keep on rambling all day if I don't stop myself, so basically good luck; your attitude and approach are right. Take it slow, look into some of the "practice" species I suggested, look for a mentor and start researching any hots you might be interested in keeping.

The University of Adelaide has a great database to search habitats, venom composition and bite protocols. WCH Clinical Toxinology Resources.

Any more questions, feel free to ask. You can also PM me anytime and I'll help you where I can.
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Old 09-07-12, 09:21 AM   #5
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Re: An aspiring keeper with many curiosities

Why is a " mentor" necessary? Did you all get a "mentor" for you that own burms or retics? I didn't and I wouldn't get one for a hot either. I think you need to study, research, research etc. a "mentor" won't stop you form getting bitten or making a stupid mistake. Want my honest opinion? Don't get it. I don't understand the fatuation for a snake you can't handle and the slightest mistake could cost you or someone else their lives. What's the point of having a hot? Don't tell me it's research because you can do that online and go view them at a zoo?
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Old 09-07-12, 09:31 AM   #6
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Re: An aspiring keeper with many curiosities

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Why is a " mentor" necessary? Did you all get a "mentor" for you that own burms or retics? I didn't and I wouldn't get one for a hot either. I think you need to study, research, research etc. a "mentor" won't stop you form getting bitten or making a stupid mistake. Want my honest opinion? Don't get it. I don't understand the fatuation for a snake you can't handle and the slightest mistake could cost you or someone else their lives. What's the point of having a hot? Don't tell me it's research because you can do that online and go view them at a zoo?
You are correct; a mentor won't stop you in the moment if you get bit...but a mentor can give you firsthand teaching experience beforehand how to hook-handle a hot and how to avoid getting bit in the first place. There are simply some things you cannot learn by reading it online or on a book. You cannot research and observe individual animals firsthand online. At a zoo, you are only getting a glimpse at the iceberg that is their daily routine. True, one could get a job working at said zoo, but not many get that opportunity.

As for you not getting the infatuation, to each his own. I don't get ball pythons. I have one and he is by far the most boring snake (reptile, even!) that I have ever owned. Perhaps my opinion is skewed by the fact that everyone and their brother has one, but it is my view just the same.

You don't have to handle a snake to enjoy it. If that is all that is important to you as a snake keeper, then I find that to be a very close-minded view. But again...to each his own.
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Old 09-07-12, 09:38 AM   #7
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Re: An aspiring keeper with many curiosities

You're 17. Go grow up a little bit before you take on anything.
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Old 09-07-12, 09:48 AM   #8
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Re: An aspiring keeper with many curiosities

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You are correct; a mentor won't stop you in the moment if you get bit...but a mentor can give you firsthand teaching experience beforehand how to hook-handle a hot and how to avoid getting bit in the first place. There are simply some things you cannot learn by reading it online or on a book. You cannot research and observe individual animals firsthand online. At a zoo, you are only getting a glimpse at the iceberg that is their daily routine. True, one could get a job working at said zoo, but not many get that opportunity.

As for you not getting the infatuation, to each his own. I don't get ball pythons. I have one and he is by far the most boring snake (reptile, even!) that I have ever owned. Perhaps my opinion is skewed by the fact that everyone and their brother has one, but it is my view just the same.

You don't have to handle a snake to enjoy it. If that is all that is important to you as a snake keeper, then I find that to be a very close-minded view. But again...to each his own.
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Let me ask you a question: do you think someone can learn how to operate and shoot a gun over the internet? or drive a car?

Ha Ha I see your points as well and I get it. It just seems when I come across these inquiries these people with "many years experience" usually only have 2-3 and they are mainly Red Tails, Balls etc. Not very aggressive. Hope she doesnt do anything stupid thats all
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Old 09-07-12, 09:57 AM   #9
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Re: An aspiring keeper with many curiosities

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Ha Ha I see your points as well and I get it. It just seems when I come across these inquiries these people with "many years experience" usually only have 2-3 and they are mainly Red Tails, Balls etc. Not very aggressive. Hope she doesnt do anything stupid thats all
Well, of course, as do I. 20 years of experience with boas and pythons gives one little experience for cobras and rattlesnakes.

This is why I always advocate a mentor, some who has kept venomous for many years and knows more about keeping hots than most of us on this board know about keeping ball pythons, boas and corn snakes.
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Old 09-07-12, 10:03 AM   #10
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Re: An aspiring keeper with many curiosities

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Ha Ha I see your points as well and I get it. It just seems when I come across these inquiries these people with "many years experience" usually only have 2-3 and they are mainly Red Tails, Balls etc. Not very aggressive. Hope she doesnt do anything stupid thats all
She won't do anything stupid if she takes my advice and grows a little more. Becomes more mature and then really leaps into it. I find the biggest problem is even though the original poster really wants this as her dream the fact is she's still only 17. Her life can change dramatically within the next 5 years. Maybe college or university. Maybe a boyfriend/husband. Maybe a drastic move across the country. Not easy with a venomous snake.
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Old 09-07-12, 10:06 AM   #11
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Re: An aspiring keeper with many curiosities

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She won't do anything stupid if she takes my advice and grows a little more. Becomes more mature and then really leaps into it. I find the biggest problem is even though the original poster really wants this as her dream the fact is she's still only 17. Her life can change dramatically within the next 5 years. Maybe college or university. Maybe a boyfriend/husband. Maybe a drastic move across the country. Not easy with a venomous snake.
Very true.

I also wanted to get into hots a few years, after I had all that: college, a new wife, etc. But I decided I simply was not set-up properly to do it the way I would like to do it, and we were planning to have children also. Health insurance is another factor to consider.
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Old 09-07-12, 10:10 AM   #12
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Re: An aspiring keeper with many curiosities

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Very true.

I also wanted to get into hots a few years, after I had all that: college, a new wife, etc. But I decided I simply was not set-up properly to do it the way I would like to do it, and we were planning to have children also. Health insurance is another factor to consider.
I totally forgot about insurance. Also home owners insurance. I especially think if you're going to keep venomous snakes that FULL disclosure is a must. We get a bad rep as reptile keepers already and we don't need bad publicity when someone's bit by their rattler in their closet....
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Old 09-07-12, 10:38 AM   #13
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Re: An aspiring keeper with many curiosities

That is one factor a lot of keepers do not think about...until after they get bit, and they realize their health insurance won't cover the hospital bill! Antivenin ain't cheap!

And if they find out you actually are owning a hot snake and didn't inform them beforehand, they may very well drop you. Same with home owner's insurance.

LOTS of very serious things to evaluate than just getting a secure cage and a sturdy hook.
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Old 09-07-12, 10:50 AM   #14
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Re: An aspiring keeper with many curiosities

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That is one factor a lot of keepers do not think about...until after they get bit, and they realize their health insurance won't cover the hospital bill! Antivenin ain't cheap!

And if they find out you actually are owning a hot snake and didn't inform them beforehand, they may very well drop you. Same with home owner's insurance.

LOTS of very serious things to evaluate than just getting a secure cage and a sturdy hook.
I know of a venomous keeper who had signs on his door to the room at both eye level as well as crawling level in case firefighters ever had to enter his house.

I also believe the fire and police had it on record that he had venomous snakes so if there was ever a call to be cautious.

Then IBD tore through his collection....
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Old 09-07-12, 12:52 PM   #15
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Re: An aspiring keeper with many curiosities

Thank you all for what you have given so far! I am NOT diving into the pit anytime soon. I want to be out of college, or at least my first four years done and a good foothold on my life before i even consider a hot to take home. Id much rather begin learning now than later, and who knows? I may find hots are not for me. Who can tell what the future holds (im hoping a boyfriend wont ruin my reptilian fun though). Starting with unpredictable nonvenoms and looking into a mentorship and some sort of foothold in the hobby is really all i expect to do for many years!

I learn best by experiencing, i feel a mentor to be te best choice. Theyll know tricks and tips i wont get from a snake attitude google search! Heck even for my garters i had a sort of mentor in a sense who let me learn from his work... I dont like taking blind risks, you cant just learn from your mistakes with certain things. I prefer to know how to prevent and care for rattlesnake bites than to learn on the way to the hospital.

I currently live in Georgia, but i really dislike it here. Id like to go to college in the west, still dealing with that decision at the moment! Colorado is the state i have my eye on.... How common are you hot keepers out there near Durango? Such a beautiful land!

Tools.... I know the joy of hooks, one of the most important tools known! After reading through that k-12 post i wonder though, are there any other tools as useful as the hook? Everyone share the best tools! I can see why some things wont work.... But has anyone ever used one of those metal mesh "strainer" catching devices? My teacher had one on the tagging trip, and he lifted an animal with a hook and dropped it in the mesh basket and slid the top. Anything of such in the trade?

I didnt realize rat snakes had such an attitude until i went on a tagging trip with my AP Bio A class last year! Even with the hooks and a mesh shield a nasty mooded female black rat went for a poor guys legs with intent to kill!
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