what all does yours eat

[JdmAllMotorHatc]

well? besides crickets

[Tigergenesis]

I feed my crested the diet in Robbie Hamper's book. A recipe with fruit flavored baby food and meat flavored baby food (I avoid added sugars, preservatives, coloring, flavoring, citrus, etc). He seems to prefer it over crickets so I've reduced how often he eats crickets (fine by me as I hate dealing with them). He occasionally gets worms (silkworms, waxworms, butterworms) and seems to like them better than crickect. Sometimes I also puree some fresh fruits in the blender and give him that. Of course I give him supplements and he has a UV light.

[labomb]

baby food usually mixed with CGD. no citric fruits. my young cresteds love crickets, the adults seem lazy and rather the baby food, they don't eat as many crickets as when they were younger. calcium and vitamin supplements are a must, they WILL get MBD if not getting enough calcium.

[CDN-Cresties]

CGD, crix, silkworms adn hopefully lobster roaches if I can find some.

[babysweet]

Baby food, no additives, mostly peach, apricot and bannana (although I've also tried apple/blueberry - they hated it). Usually mixed 50/50 with CGD. Oh, and crickets. TONS of crickets. They love them.

Vitamin and Cal. supps on everything.

[Tigergenesis]

You have to be careful mixing CGD with anything other than water as suggested. It is a complete product in itself and mixing with baby food can interfer with the nutritional balance.

[babysweet]

I've made this assertion before, and should probably let sleeping dogs lie, but I don't buy the idea that *any* product is "100% nutritionally balanced" and so I choose to mix my CGD with babyfood and a bit of water, and then add an appropriate amount of supplements to the mix to make up for the babyfood additive.

I will note that this is a personal decision and I in no way adovate the use of this feeding method to others. I am not a reptile nutritionist, nor am I an expert in any sense of the word.

THAT SAID, it is impossible to create a 100% nutritionally balanced diet, period. It's simply not possible. It's a farce. It's a marketing ploy. It's a nice and easy way to feed... but it's not perfect.

I will also note that I am in no way suggesting that the way that I feed my cresties is any more or less correct than the formulation of CGD. I just have an issue with the phrase "100% nutritionally complete and balanced" and I find the idea that in order to feed our pets correctly we must do so using bottled, bagged and processed food... well... silly.

Also, my intention here is to simply apply another perspective, so if you disagree with me, I have "100% complete and balanced" respect for your decision to do so.

[Betty Miskie]

I actually feed mine crickets one day, homemade babyfood mixture (mango, pear, banana and yogurt) the next day, crickets the next and keep up with that rotation. I have just started to add dry cgd in a dish and leave it in their enclosure for them to chose what they want to eat. I make sure I leave fresh water as well.
Betty

[CDN-Cresties]

Its a nice and easy way that is SUCCESSFUL. There's no need to overkill it by mixing it with babyfood and extra supplements. I just really dont see the point? :S

[babysweet]

CDN Cresties, I'm starting to think you own stock in the CGD manufacturer... j/k

Firstly, I'd like to point out that successful is a pretty loose term, and you'd need to define how you measure "success" before I can respond to that statement. For example, in order for a commercial dog food to be considered "successful" it must pass AAFCO (Association of Amercian Feed Control Officials) feeding trials.

Just what does this entail? Feeding eight dogs the subject food for six months. At the end of that six months, the dogs in question must not have lost more than 15% of their total body weight, four blood values are checked to make sure that they have not fallen below minimum, and 6 of the eight dogs must still be in the trial.

So, according to AAFCO, a trial that ends with two dead dogs, six dogs with a 10% weight loss, and moderately high/low blood values is a success.

Huh?

It's also been shown that you can construct a dog food that meets AAFCO's nutrient requirements by combining shoe leather, motor oil, and an array of vitamins and minerals.

Now obviously I'm not suggesting that Rapashy's diet is in this bottom league, but it is my firm belief that you can not feed any animal a 100% processed diet and expect it to thrive. It may live, it may reproduce, it may have an acceptable level of health and/or lack of illness... but will it thrive? No.

The fact is that a processed diet can NOT contain the vital amino acids, EFAs and digestive enzymes that real food does. Sure, you can add artificial/processed versions into the mix during packaging, but as soon as the bag/bottle is opened they take in air and begin to break down.

On top of all this, what about all the components of food that we're not aware of? Taurine was only discovered after hundreds of cats suffered eye/heart problems after a life of commercial cat food that wasn't fortified with this essential amino acid. How many more are not contained within processed foods... because we don't even know they exist, let alone that they're required?

Supplementation is neccessary for a lot of things. I supplement now with a multivitamin/calcium/D3 additive. But that doesn't mean that I think the entire diet should be processed. When was the last time your doctor told you to take more multivitamins... but don't eat fresh fruit, because it will throw off the delicate nutritional balance.

I just think that we're sacrificing quality for ease of use. I don't feed us out of a bag, and I don't feed my pets out of a bag. Granted, I keep a bit of commercial food for everyone in the house just in case we run out of something, or I had to work late and we're short on time... etc., etc. But the entire world is being consumed by "fast and easy" instead of focusing on what's important.

You can call the diet "successful" if you want, but I don't think that success alone makes it the best choice. I know people who feed vegan cat food, knowing that cats are obligate carnivores. The cats are alive, yes... but would I do it? Not for all the money in the world.

Kevin Dunne has a whole colony of cresties he feeds on dusted crickets, and nothing else. He's said he's seen no notable differences between the success of this colony, and the one fed CGD/babyfood. Does this make it successful? Well, as the second largest producer of cresties in NA, I think it would be pretty damn foolish of me to suggest otherwise. Would I do it? Hell no. Neither would you, judging by your affinity towards CGD.

The POINT of my rambling is simply this: I don't care what the nutritional break down of the food is. I don't care about all the anecdotal evidence that so far says it's "successful". It is MY opinion that you can NOT feed ANY animal a 100% processed diet, and expect it to be as healthy as it COULD BE.

Want one more example? Take baby formula. Milk replacement powder. Have you noticed lately that the medical establishment as a whole is pushing more and more women to breastfeed their children? Because a few decades after "convenience" baby food came out, even with it's tag of "100% complete nutrition", it's been proven that breast milk is better.

Nature knows best.

Respectfully,

Kim

P.S. I don't consider going out of my way to make sure I eat a salad today "overkill", and I certainly feel the same way about putting in the extra work to make sure that ALL my pets have a nutritional, properly balanced, natural, species-appropriate diet.

[CDN-Cresties]

I actually own stocks in gerber

The measure of success used was hatch rates. I mentioned that in a previous thread, I should have mentioned it in this one.

Yeah your right, they wont thrive??? Look at Allen's collection. You dont maintain such a large collection on crap.

My problem is that you bash the diet without testing it yourself. Also, it seems you indirectly bash those who use the diet as well. Implying that they are not taking proper care of their pets. Here is an example of what I am talking about.

I find the idea that in order to feed our pets correctly we must do so using bottled, bagged and processed food... well... silly.

So I guess those who use CDG are silly....? No one is forcing anyone to use CGD, they are simply passing along info. I have never told anyone nor have seen anyone say on a forum, your diet sucks, use CGD instead.

I trust that Allen isn't BSing anyone when he states that he has had more successful hate rates with CDG rather than a babyfood mix because afterall, it is his name and rep on the line.

Like I have stated earlier many different diets work. CGD is obviously a convience but I dont think that should take anything away from the product. Feed your cresties how ever you see best but dont bash something without testing it yourself.

:zi:

[babysweet]

Gerber... lol.

The measure of success used was hatch rates. I mentioned that in a previous thread, I should have mentioned it in this one.

Ok, but who tested it? Hmmm... the maker of the diet, you say? Well, I'm not questioning Rapashy's honesty, or integrity, but I think it would be careless to assume an educated opinion based on the makers assertions. Also, there is a good point to be made here that maybe cresties shouldn't have such a high hatch rate. The food that KFC feeds its chickens provides them with mutant-sized breasts, making them top heavy enough disable their mobility. Yeah for the chicken-breast eating public... boo for the chicken. (not comparing Rapashy's diet to steroid enhanced chicken feed... lol... just making a point that bigger is not always better!)

Yeah your right, they wont thrive??? Look at Allen's collection. You dont maintain such a large collection on crap.

You'll find about 5,000 dog breeders in Canada producing hundreds of thousands of puppies for agility, obedience, and the show ring... who are fed Pedigree, Dog Chow and Ol' Roy. Are these dogs maintained? Yep, absolutely. Are they thriving? Nope. The problem is, most people don't realize it. You have to take a Pedigree-fed dog and put him next to a dog fed a balanced diet of REAL food before you realize that his coat doesn't glow like it could, his eyes don't sparkle, he's lacking that spring in his step, his toenails are more brittle, his teeth not so white... Take me for example. I'm not overweight, I eat ok, I dont' really exercise... I'm alive, and I'm healthy. Can I compare my state of health to my aunt who eats only organic foods and runs marathons? No way, next to her I look like an out-of-shape fast food junkie. lol

My problem is that you bash the diet without testing it yourself. Also, it seems you indirectly bash those who use the diet as well. Implying that they are not taking proper care of their pets. Here is an example of what I am talking about.

I find the idea that in order to feed our pets correctly we must do so using bottled, bagged and processed food... well... silly.

So I guess those who use CDG are silly....? No one is forcing anyone to use CGD, they are simply passing along info. I have never told anyone nor have seen anyone say on a forum, your diet sucks, use CGD instead.

You've taken what I said out of context. It's my fault, I should have explained that more thoroughly (sometimes my fingers get ahead of my brain... )

I wasn't saying that feeding CGD is silly, and I wasn't trying to insult those of you who do. I don't agree with it, but I'm not trying to "bash" it. What I'm saying is that it's silly to argue that as hobby herpers we're incapable of providing an appropriate diet consisting of FRESH foods. Commercial pet foods on the market today are sold under the idea that by NOT feeding them you're doing your pets a disservice, and I just DON'T agree with that.

Let me clear something up here that I think is getting confused. It's not the diet itself that's at issue. It's not Rapashy's abilities, or his integrity, it's not the ingredients, it's not the formulation. It's the fact that it's processed.

What started my little (ok, BIG... lol) rant was the suggestion that adding real food to CGD was breaking the rules and that it would upset the "100% nutritionally balanced" diet so carefully prepared and packaged.

While I don't think that you can just add whatever you want and it will all even out in the end (read: babyfood must be supplemented!! It is not a complete meal!!) I think that there is something to be said for providing fresh foods on a regular basis.

I really am sorry that you feel that I'm "bashing" CGD. I'm not... hell, I feed it myself! But it's been proven time and time again in hundreds of species, that fresh foods are a necessity for optimum health. That's why zoos no longer feed their big cats Whiskas. They feed them a species appropriate diet of raw meat, organs, bones, and supplements.

I personally love the idea of CGD, and I keep it on hand at all times. I usually mix a bit in with my babyfood mix (sometimes I do, sometimes I don't) and some days I use it on it's own, if I realize the kricket keeper is empty and there's no more babyfood in the fridge.

But after seeing what a 100% processed diet has done to so many other species, I PERSONALLY will not feed CGD and only CGD.

Let me also note here that you don't feed only CGD either. You add crickets (dusted, I assume) as their "fresh food" portion. I just take it one step further. I'll also admit that as soon as I am comfortable enough with my knowledge of reptile nutrition, I will phase out the CGD, and go to a diet more along the lines of Hilde's.

I think a happy medium would be a frozen CGD diet (a pre-mix of babyfood and supps) or a powdered supplement that is added to fresh pureed fruit or babyfood.

Again, I'm sorry, CDN Cresties, that you've taken my opinions personally. My intention was never to offend.

[DragnDrop]

I agree with Kim that no artificial diet can be 100% complete, at least not with our current knowledge of (insert species name here, any species, not just herps) nutritional needs and our technology to analyse the chemical combinations in the food we eat.
Artificial diets contain only the ingredients added to the batch. What if the species needs a different ingredient (like taurine in cats as was mentioned)? They'll probably live a while or even close to a natural life span, but did the mother have enough reserve to pass some on to her offspring via the egg or placenta etc.? She may well have reproduced and reproduced healthy looking offspring, but sooner or later that missing ingredient will have an effect.

A commonly accepted practise is to dust feeders and non-insect food with supplements. Great - a lot of species thrive with that kind of diet, but some didn't. Chameleons lived a very short time, many developed edema or died mysteriously, though they were well supplemented with commercial vitamins and minerals. Then it became apparent that chams are very susceptible to overdoses of vitamins and minerals. But how could that be? The container said 'complete' mix of vitamins and minerals for every herp. Other species didn't have that problem, just chams. So, is that commercial brand of vitamins and/or minerals complete and balanced, or not? Which species do you judge it by? Bet the chams didn't have that problem using Mother Nature's Natural Mix in the wild.

Maybe Rhacs can live on the artificial diet, maybe it is complete enough to be used exclusively, but I also believe that there's got to be something missing. Has anyone ever analysed EVERYTHING that wild Rhacs eat? Is there a list of ingredients -vitamins, minerals, amino acids and all those other goodies? In any given season, you can expect them to find a certain food in overabundance, yet in another season that food source is gone. If the analysts came along while that food source was gone, they wouldn't have it on their list, yet it's a source of nutrients for the geckos. They could in effect get enough of the nutrients to store and live off until the next time that food source comes around. An example is seasonal fruit and insects. Unless the geckos were studied year-around, there's no way their entire food intake would have been studied (and don't forget, they eat at night, so it's hard to watch what they eat, while stomach contents and fecal analysis is not completely reliable).

I'll use a variety of food - fruit and insects. Even the fruit mix recipe I use changes from one batch to the other - fruit varies from season to season. There's bound to be some variation of nutrients in the different fruits, chances are that what's missing in one will be supplied by the other. The supplements I add are just 'insurance'.

There's no way I'm implying that the CGD etc. are useless. There's food value in them, and they've been tested and proven to be nutritious enough to allow the animals to live and breed. What I'm saying it I don't believe they're complete enough to be used alone, no other food need be offered. I'm saying there's more chance that something is missing in them than the chance that they're 100% complete. Who knows how many generations it will take before we clue in that there's something missing? I might not worry too much about being a fast food junkie, eating empty calories and the like, and I sure love my chocolate and cookies, but that's my choice. My geckos have no choice but to eat what I put on their plates. They can't go out and get their own food. They're stuck with what they get. The least I can do is make sure they get a chance to eat a variety of foods so they have a better chance at getting what might be missing in one suposedly 'complete' diet - be it natural, organic, artificial, man-made or beamed in by aliens.

The measure of success used was hatch rates. I mentioned that in a previous thread, I should have mentioned it in this one.

That measure of success is useless. Look at the 'hatch rate' in puppy mills. Those dogs manage to 'hatch out' many offspring, does that mean they're being properly fed?

[CDN-Cresties]

I don't have much time until tomorrow night. Damn exam worth 50 percent of my mark but here is a thread that goes along the lines of what my position is. Pretty much it is how I came to use CGD. Its a long thread but entertaining.

http://forums.kingsnake.com/viewarch...51944&key=2004

[babysweet]

I know exactly what you're going through with the exams... hubby is taking his computer networking exams this week. I don't think I've seen him sleep in about 12 days. You have my sympathies!

As for AC's post on Kingsnake... well, three things.

1.) Again with the conflict of Interest. Does AC Reptiles not take care of all of Rapashy's cresty sales? 'nuff said.

2.) His argument regarding feeding crickets and babyfood as being just as "unnatural" as CGD... come on, now... A fruit is a fruit is a fruit. Sure, they're different fruits, with different composition, and different pros and cons... but they're still live fruit, as part of a varied diet. You simply can not say that Apple Vs. Orange is the same as Peach Vs. powdered whey mix. I realize that we can't mimic the wild cresty diet exactly, but the fact is that I'm going to come closer by varying the foods in the diet than by limiting myself to one food item.

3.) "Crested Gecko Diet is not a good, complete diet." You see, what I'm trying to get across here is that while there is such a thing as a good, complete diet, there is no such thing as a good, complete FOOD. CGD is not a diet, it is a food. A diet, by it's very description, is varied.

One more note (yeah, yeah, I know I said three.. ). AC even says right in the post that two of his criteria for choosing a diet for his cresties are colour and growth rate. Colour and growth rate? Sorry, I want health and longevity. I fear the day when someone refers to me as a "Breeder" before all else. These guys are my pets. Simple as that. Yep, I'm going to breed them. But I can't imagine getting so caught up in the potential income that I would forget what should always come first... the well being of the creature in your care.

Ok, I gotta split (going home after a hard day's work... :P)

I'm sure we'll discuss this further...

Kim

Final note: I can assure you all that the colour of my future cresties will be due to their impeccable breeding and care, NOT due to the pigments I put in their dish at night.