Brumation fluctuations

[marisa]

Hi guys!

I am brumating four adult snakes (two corns, 1 cal king, 1 mexican black) in a spare bathroom. I regulate the temp by opening or shutting the window more or less. (Everyone in there is WELL protected from drafts)

But with this stupid fluctuating winter weather I am having a hard time keeping the temps as stable as I'd like.

Right now it ranges between 48 and 60F. 48 is extreme low, and 60 would be a high for a couple hours if I can't cool it down enough. Most of the time, I'd say 70% of the time the temp is between 52 and 56F. Are these fluctuations going to harm the snakes? I am trying my hardest to keep the temp more stable.

They have been brumating for almost a month now, and all four are holding weight and non-active. thanks

Marisa

[vanderkm]

We had that kind of variation last year and have had similar this year too. If temps are too much above 60 you may see more weight loss than you might like and I am careful not to let them go below 40, but some people maintain that the fluxuation is actually closer to what happens in a natural situation and not a problem. We do locate our males where the temps are lowest so we are more confident the sperm development will be enhanced.

I am sure they will do great for you,

mary v.

[marisa]

Thanks. I am totally nervous because its my first time brumating anything aside from a bearded dragon once. Anyways since they seem to be doing good so far I will just work on keeping it at least below 60.

Marisa

neither the corns or kings 'need' brumation for breeding, other than saving on food bills or adjusting to their seasonal schedule there is no reason for brumating. That said temp fluctuations become irrelevant.

[marisa]

They don't need it but it can definitly help with the males. I am brumating my cal king and my mexican black because both go off food this time of year anyways, regardless of temp like MANY male king.

So to me, its not irrelevant, but thanks for your opinion of it being so.

Marisa
BTW. I don't need to save on a food bill for four snakes??? Talk about "irrelevant"

>They don't need it but it can definitly help with the males.

do you have any research that backs this? everything scientific(meaning with research) I have read says no. Sorry if you thought I was belittling you in some way, actually I never considered you in any way, just stating the facts as I know them.

[marisa]

The males eating "rituals" is what I was referring too, as in going off fed. Wasn't clear though now that I re-read.

As for sperm count I am actually on your side if thats believing it is not needed, as I had a very fertile good sized clutch from a non brumated pair this past season, so I definitly know not brumating also works!

Marisa

np, just note in my original post "or adjusting to their seasonal schedule"

[Simon Sansom]

Hi folks,

I have heard from herpers more experienced than I, that if fluctuations continue or are too great, it can wreak havoc with the female's ovulation cycle, basically causing her to ovulate too early.
Something to think about.

I think most of us try to keep our brumation temps around 55 degrees F. for our temperate-climate colubrids.
It can be difficult to provide a place cool enough.

Good luck with your animals. Keep us posted.

Simon

[vanderkm]

Interesting point Simon. So the females would ovulate before being brought out of brumation? Would you expect to see a pre-ovulation shed during brumation that would tip you off that something like that was likely? Seems there is more info on ovulation in boids than colubrids, at least from what I have been able to find.

I have gone almost entirely from the 'general knowledge' that is shared on the web about the benefit of brumation for males - and like Reverend says - it helps with my feed bill and time off for short holidays!

Something more to think about - really wish there was more scientific assessment to rely on - but with so many species that may have variation - hard to know if what works best for corns can also be applied to milks or kings when they come from such varied environments originally. Always lots to ponder,

mary v.

[Vanan]

As for sperm count I am actually on your side if thats believing it is not needed, as I had a very fertile good sized clutch from a non brumated pair this past season, so I definitly know not brumating also works!

What species would that be? If you're talking corns, they don't even brumate in the true sense of the word for most part of their range. Plus, it is general knowledge that spermatozoa does undergo mutations and degeneration if exposed to prolonged high heat.

[Invictus]

I made the decision this year not to brumate my corns, but from what I've read, heard, and seen, it can only help. Last spring, my big male corn mated the female constantly for a couple of weeks - and nothing came of it. Would brumation have helped? Who knows. Maybe they're both infertile. I'll give them another try this spring, but without brumation.

With the Kings and milks, however, they have been put down, because I heard/read that they usually will not breed without a brumation period. Because of their cannibalistic nature, I decided not to take a risk.

[marisa]

O.k. I am utterly confused now.

But first I would just like to say I ALREADY have them in brumation, so any discussion on if I should be or not doesn't matter at this point. They are already being brumated. That's the choice I made and obviously, I am sticking with it.

My question involved knowing how much fluctuation is too much. Like I said 70% of the time the temp doesn't change from 52-56F. Its the spikes that do down to 48 (hasnt been lower) and up too 60F. One person said they will be fine, another person said I am possibly causing my snake to ovulate too early (or thats a possibility) so I am unclear on this. Since I am having fluctuations should I take them out sooner than planned, or are those fluctuations small enough they will be fine?

Thank you.
Marisa

[Vanan]

It depends on snake to snake and species to species. It may cause a snake to ovulate too early but I doubt it when it doesn't go past 60F. In the past (when we didn't have a cool basement) we've brumated snakes at 60F-68F. Noone ovulated too early or anything. Just got more loss on body weight. This year I'm aiming for 45-55F.

[C.m.pyrrhus]

I feel if your going to brumate your corns, that it should be done at around a temp gradient of 50-55°. With the fluctuations your having I would say those are normal and no problem as is. Anything above 60° is at risk of RI and of course a bit of weight loss. There is a fella near me that brumates all his snakes together at 40-45° respectively (mostly montane species), only changes the amount of time a given species is 'under'. His brother lives in a hotter climate, and brumates his at about a 12° increase in temp, also not having any problems. Both of these temp gradients are under 60° during the whole prosedure. I have been brumating this year at a gradient of 42-55°, but no corns, mostly montane species, thus the lower temps I prefer. When it comes to corns, it is up to the keeper to brumate or not, but I feel the temps should be at a gradient not exceeding 60° if your going to go with it. IMO, I feel it only helps to brumate.