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Old 03-13-13, 06:06 AM   #61
bcr226
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Re: Reptillian Theories

The main problem for testing emotion comes from the fact that while emotion may be the result of a chemical or electro-chemical response, it is a psychological matter vs. a wholly physical matter.

It's closely related to mood in some manners which does give a small basis for creating a way to test for it but I just can't figure out how to come to any conclusive results.

I'm not a scientist but I do work with theory and development of ideas. I understand and use the concepts of experimentation on a regular basis in what I do. I'm a bit stumped on this but it's under my skin now and I want answers. LOL
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Old 03-26-13, 06:52 AM   #62
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Re: Reptillian Theories

An interesting read on brain lateralization and its implications for judging emotional capacity in reptiles.

Elsevier
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Old 04-01-13, 05:35 PM   #63
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Re: Reptillian Theories

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Originally Posted by red ink View Post
Lets do one better to conclusive prove that snakes have emotions.... particularly the emotion of snakes "loving" their keepers.

Let's all take are snakes out into a suitable environment for them to thrive in and set them free...

afterall if you love something then set it free, if it comes back it loves you back... doesn't it?

We can all convene in a month to discuss our findings... we can not prove this without proper experimentation and proper statistical data to back us up?

Who's with me on this?
Actually given the huge percentage of snakes that are found after escaping...

Though probably this is more related to the fact that snakes do not travel far by choice in the wild, and so tend to stay in the house or close general area where they escaped!
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Old 04-01-13, 05:42 PM   #64
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Re: Reptillian Theories

There's also the issue of brooding behaviour, e.g., the way a female python will "shiver" to raise heat for her eggs. This kind of behaviour fits with bird brooding behaviour, and birds certainly tend to show the close bonding we think of as "love".
While this is very rudimentary in terms of social bonds, it implies some instinct-guided capability to be aware of the well-being of creatures beyond oneself. I think snakes are pretty short on this capability, though other reptiles can demonstrate it to a surprising degree in parental behaviour.

As far as happiness in snakes - we probably do need to learn a lot more before we can even tell from a brain scan. As a keeper, I consider eating on schedule, being in good physical condition, and not engaging in obvious discontented behaviour to be pretty much a win! I don't know if we'll ever know when a snake is genuinely happy, if snakes even can feel what we consider to be happiness, but I don't doubt at all that I can usually tell when one of mine is *unhappy*.
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Old 04-01-13, 06:57 PM   #65
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Re: Reptillian Theories

Personally, I think the brooding aspect is a stretch. It's just a mechanism the female uses to help increase the chances of her eggs surviving = successful passing of genetic material. Its millions of years of instinctual behavior; the female snake does it because her body/hormones tell her its what she is supposed to do. She is not making any conscious decision or choice to be near the eggs. In some cases, the eggs may turn bad and her body will tell her this, and she will move on.
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Old 04-02-13, 04:03 AM   #66
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Re: Reptillian Theories

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Originally Posted by StudentoReptile View Post
Personally, I think the brooding aspect is a stretch. It's just a mechanism the female uses to help increase the chances of her eggs surviving = successful passing of genetic material. Its millions of years of instinctual behavior; the female snake does it because her body/hormones tell her its what she is supposed to do. She is not making any conscious decision or choice to be near the eggs. In some cases, the eggs may turn bad and her body will tell her this, and she will move on.
Well, yes, but you could make the exact same argument for mammalian mothering behavior - and note that mammal mothers of many species will instinctively eat their babies if there is a severe food shortage or ongoing threat-stress, and move on without, as far as we can tell, ever looking back.
Ultimately, one could argue that *all* parental-care behaviour is a mechanism used to increase the chances of genetic material surviving, with the capacity for what we most usually call "parental love" (in its ultimate form, the parent's willingness to sacrifice themself for a child - which is very much culturally determined; the closer to the edge a human population is, the more likely it is for cultural norms to include various forms of sacrificing the infant, non-contributive for years and with the lowest chance of survival, in order to preserve the healthy adult who can help keep the tribe alive and may produce more children in better times) increasing with increased time-binding ability and social character of the species.
I am by no means suggesting that mama python feels the same way about her eggs that mama human, or even mama rabbit, does about the child or litter in her womb - it is fairly certain that she doesn't, and I think extremely certain that, unlike just about any mammalian species, mama python is very highly unlikely ever to transfer any aspect of those rudimentary family instincts to anything other than her eggs. But the presence of instinctive parental behaviour is the first necessary step in developing the wider complex of hormonally-supported instinctive behaviour that we think of as "love" - the big difference with us being that humans can and constantly do transfer the initial instinctive emotion to all sorts of non-reproduction-related beings, objects, and even abstract ideals! Are snakes ever going to take another step in that direction? I doubt it, unless the world changes in ways rather more severe than gently shifting back towards another period of climactic optimum.
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Old 04-02-13, 06:16 AM   #67
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Re: Reptillian Theories

I feel some recent obervations I've made of my snakes could be relevant here. It says nothing about emotion, but it does say something about complexity and their ability to judge a situation.

Namely my snakes will often be out and about in their tanks when I am around and usually be undisturbed, provided I don't make any sudden movements. If a few other people come in though (they are calm and quiet as well) they will rapidly hide. I don't know if it is because they recognize there are more people in the room than usual or if its because they recognize them as not being the person who is normally in the room. However it does show I think that they can recognize changes in the environment more complex than "a big, potentially dangerous creature is near me."
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Old 04-03-13, 11:37 AM   #68
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Re: Reptillian Theories

I want a King Cobra best friend!


I am actually interested in researching this stuff. Maybe I could use my degree towards it.
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