Determining price

[Aaron_S]

Originally Posted by regi375

Sorry if I'm piggybacking off this thread, but what if you're offering a captive bred individual from a species that is generally sold as wild caught? About how much would the price go up?

That depends. Is it sought after? Is it a difficult species to work with? What does it look like? Are they CITES? Can they be legally imported/exported?

Look at savannah monitors. They are imported for pennies and so anyone captive breeding them usually only charges a couple hundred bucks whereas you might think they'd be worth a $1000 because very few people are/can get them to breed in captivity.

[jjhill001]

Originally Posted by Aaron_S

That depends. Is it sought after? Is it a difficult species to work with? What does it look like? Are they CITES? Can they be legally imported/exported?

Look at savannah monitors. They are imported for pennies and so anyone captive breeding them usually only charges a couple hundred bucks whereas you might think they'd be worth a $1000 because very few people are/can get them to breed in captivity.

That guy at NERD is selling his water monitors for 800-3000 dollars. Its about cultivating a reason to have your animals being regarded as worth more. What is the person doing that's different from the competition kind of thing.

[Aaron_S]

Originally Posted by jjhill001

That guy at NERD is selling his water monitors for 800-3000 dollars. Its about cultivating a reason to have your animals being regarded as worth more. What is the person doing that's different from the competition kind of thing.

Exactly. Water monitors are looked at differently than savannah monitors. On top of the fact they now have some morph water monitors (I think albino) it lends to be more sought after.

I personally don't like NERD and think he's stupid.

[Albert Clark]

Originally Posted by jjhill001

That guy at NERD is selling his water monitors for 800-3000 dollars. Its about cultivating a reason to have your animals being regarded as worth more. What is the person doing that's different from the competition kind of thing.

Well, Kevin and Josh at NERD are breeders that deal on a very large scale (thousands of reptiles) and do deal with margins of error that come with a mega business operation. They are understanding and always willing to make things/ errors correct. Any small business starting out always works at somewhat of a loss. It usually takes 3 - 5 years to really begin to turn the tides of losses into profits. These big time breeders all have a start up story that involves beginning struggles and taking small and large losses as far as their businesses are concerned. The main difference is the ones that have a passion for the business/ industry/ hobby. Also the ones that are in it for the long haul and not just for show.

[Albert Clark]

Originally Posted by TRD

I get real tired of seeing those tables full with BPs at the reptile shows, one after the other. Waste of space for more interesting stuff imo.

Wow, sorry to hear this.... very controversial statement.

[Primal Rage]

Meh, I am inclined to agree with TRD. I miss the when shows were just once a year and had some variety. During the hay days of the early to mid nineties show would have a little of everything! Now literally all you see are BP's, Boa's, bearded dragons,leopard geckos and cresties. The worst part is when you finally walk up on a table filled without the aforementioned junk, it's usually loaded with banged up wild caught animals fresh from the importer. I rarely go to shows anymore. The community would be better off without them.

[jjhill001]

Originally Posted by Aaron_S

Exactly. Water monitors are looked at differently than savannah monitors. On top of the fact they now have some morph water monitors (I think albino) it lends to be more sought after.

I personally don't like NERD and think he's stupid.

Why do you have that opinion?

[Albert Clark]

Originally Posted by Primal Rage

Meh, I am inclined to agree with TRD. I miss the when shows were just once a year and had some variety. During the hay days of the early to mid nineties show would have a little of everything! Now literally all you see are BP's, Boa's, bearded dragons,leopard geckos and cresties. The worst part is when you finally walk up on a table filled without the aforementioned junk, it's usually loaded with banged up wild caught animals fresh from the importer. I rarely go to shows anymore. The community would be better off without them.

Well, alot of what you don't see at the expos is due in part to the Lacey Act. Which there may be a trend now where that will change hopefully. The wild caughts should be banned bc "born free" should "live free" in my opinion not to mention the disruption in the eco systems.

[Primal Rage]

Originally Posted by Albert Clark

Well, alot of what you don't see at the expos is due in part to the Lacey Act. Which there may be a trend now where that will change hopefully. The wild caughts should be banned bc "born free" should "live free" in my opinion not to mention the disruption in the eco systems.

I would have to respectfully disagree with both of those statements. First off the Lacey act only restricts a hand full of species mostly amphibians. Second, how fair is it that I should have to pick the species that I collect and keep based on how popular they are or how long they have been Captive bred in the hobby? Seems just a tad bit hypocritical to say that when ALL species currently in the hobby descended from WC animals. I only keep colubrids. Most of the species I have are not commonly bred in captivity. Are you saying that I should just forget about keeping the species I want based on your statement?

[Andy_G]

Originally Posted by Albert Clark

Wow, sorry to hear this.... very controversial statement.

Although I can respect your observations Albert, I don't feel it to be controversial at all...I totally skip the tables wih just ball pythons there. A lot of people love em, a lot of people are sick of em, and some like me are simply not interested.

There is a plethora of colubrids with richer colours and with much more personality that could replace the space taken up by them at an expo without even getting into anything to do with the lacey act or the cb vs. wc side of things.

[dannybgoode]

The royal craze meant that a lot of people stopped working with other species and has, imo, somewhat fuelled the desire to chase morphs in every species of snake at the expense of interesting and beautiful natural species.

Our main expo is actually not too bad. Sure there's a lot of royals but there's still a reasonable variety but nothing like the diversity they have at the big European expos, Hamm and Houten, which I really may 5 visit before we leave the EURO lest I want to bring something back with me .

[Albert Clark]

Originally Posted by Primal Rage

I would have to respectfully disagree with both of those statements. First off the Lacey act only restricts a hand full of species mostly amphibians. Second, how fair is it that I should have to pick the species that I collect and keep based on how popular they are or how long they have been Captive bred in the hobby? Seems just a tad bit hypocritical to say that when ALL species currently in the hobby descended from WC animals. I only keep colubrids. Most of the species I have are not commonly bred in captivity. Are you saying that I should just forget about keeping the species I want based on your statement?

. And that's fine that you disagree, that's what we do. However there is more than just a handful of reptiles restricted going back to 2012. You can keep whatever you like bc that's your preference. Descended from and living free today is quite different. What I'm saying is what I have written but if you're misinterpreting my statements then I have no control over that. We are all entitled to our opinions and that's all they are.

[Albert Clark]

Originally Posted by Andy_G

Although I can respect your observations Albert, I don't feel it to be controversial at all...I totally skip the tables wih just ball pythons there. A lot of people love em, a lot of people are sick of em, and some like me are simply not interested.

There is a plethora of colubrids with richer colours and with much more personality that could replace the space taken up by them at an expo without even getting into anything to do with the lacey act or the cb vs. wc side of things.

. I totally see your opinion but I beg to differ. His comment is absolutely controversial IMO. We like what we want and there are others that like what they like and the reasons why make it controversial. The ones that are not interested must have reasons why and they're all not the same. Thus the controversy.

[TRD]

Originally Posted by Albert Clark

. I totally see your opinion but I beg to differ. His comment is absolutely controversial IMO. We like what we want and there are others that like what they like and the reasons why make it controversial. The ones that are not interested must have reasons why and they're all not the same. Thus the controversy.

I'm not being controversial.

At the reptile shows here there are about 10-12 breeders with snakes out of which (and I'm not kidding here) 8-10 only show their BPs. Of the 2 left there is 1 with Lampropeltis in all shapes and colors (only morphs) and another actually has all kind of interesting things and a few morphs.

When you ask the BP breeders if they have anything else, almost all of them say they have a whole bunch of other species - yet they do not take any of them. Instead they have box after box the same morph of BP. I don't get it, why display 5 boxes with the same snake? They aren't even selling them throughout the day, or maybe 1-2. Why not instead take 2 boxes of their BP morph and take 3 other species instead?

There are so many interesting species of snakes besides a BP, regardless of popularity. Other species are never going to get any traction, if they are not marketed at public exhibitions.

1 Year ago at least there were a few hognoses as well, but since this year the Hognose and all it's members have been placed on the DWA list, together with Boiga. So, blah. More stuff that just vanishes because some kid somewhere thought if a great pet snake and got wacked in the face.

[Aaron_S]

Originally Posted by Albert Clark

Well, Kevin and Josh at NERD are breeders that deal on a very large scale (thousands of reptiles) and do deal with margins of error that come with a mega business operation. They are understanding and always willing to make things/ errors correct. Any small business starting out always works at somewhat of a loss. It usually takes 3 - 5 years to really begin to turn the tides of losses into profits. These big time breeders all have a start up story that involves beginning struggles and taking small and large losses as far as their businesses are concerned. The main difference is the ones that have a passion for the business/ industry/ hobby. Also the ones that are in it for the long haul and not just for show.

Originally Posted by jjhill001

Why do you have that opinion?

Answer to both: My close friend bought 3 HET for caramel albino ball pythons for $10,000 each back in the day. They didn't prove out. They proved out to be het for REGULAR albino (Valued around $3000 each) at time of original purchase. That's 2 - 3 years of growing up babies, 3 years of proving them out. All the while prices dropping on caramel albinos. He never made good on the deal.

Further Kevin talks like he knows what he's doing with genetics but actually doesn't. Moreso, he has lied to make sales. When the soulsucker came out he said you NEED a "hidden gene" lesser of his to make the combo. He priced them at $2500 each. Turns out any ole $200 lesser does the same thing. He bred enough of them to know this but wanted more money. People fell for it. Did the same with the "lucifer" ball. It's just a really nice fire gene....

Oh and his entire business model now is built on selling animals that really shouldn't be in the hands of every day keepers like water monitors and retics...

Originally Posted by Primal Rage

Meh, I am inclined to agree with TRD. I miss the when shows were just once a year and had some variety. During the hay days of the early to mid nineties show would have a little of everything! Now literally all you see are BP's, Boa's, bearded dragons,leopard geckos and cresties. The worst part is when you finally walk up on a table filled without the aforementioned junk, it's usually loaded with banged up wild caught animals fresh from the importer. I rarely go to shows anymore. The community would be better off without them.

Originally Posted by Andy_G

Although I can respect your observations Albert, I don't feel it to be controversial at all...I totally skip the tables wih just ball pythons there. A lot of people love em, a lot of people are sick of em, and some like me are simply not interested.

There is a plethora of colubrids with richer colours and with much more personality that could replace the space taken up by them at an expo without even getting into anything to do with the lacey act or the cb vs. wc side of things.

Ok if you dislike the shows the way they are go and buy $5000 worth of different species. Raise them. Breed them. Put them on your table at a show and see how many people buy them up. Reason those shows are like this is because people can sell the common stuff. 90% of people I see complain about common species at a show actually don't own all the rare animals they want to see at a show. They want a zoo. A cheap zoo and someone else to do it for them and take all the financial risk.

I know plenty of people who bred rarer animals but sold them off because they couldn't sell them show after show after show.

I'd happily take my words back if some people go out and do this but most people don't. I know Andy has some fantastic bull snakes he's working on.