Super chill, but jag wonky. Worth it?

albertagirl · 05-28-16, 04:01 PM

Hi everyone. I went to a reptile show today and there was a baby diamond bredl jungle jag with the most amazing temperament. They put her in my hands and I almost bought her right then and there. They said she's always chill like that and has been sweet from day one. Now, I was originally thinking about a carpet for next year, so I've been doing some research, and I didn't want anything with jag. I like the look but I feel that the neural issues are a problem. But other than that she's perfect, so my questions are:

I feel like a snake with neural issues is a fairly major downer. But I feel like a snake with an excellent temperament is a pretty major bonus. What are your opinions on this? Everything else being perfect, would you go for a snake with something you feel is a downside if it also had a real upside? How big of an issue is it really to have a snake who doesn't know which way is up? She displayed about a 40 degree head tilt. What are your experiences with owning jags who DO have obvious head tilt/wobble? Also, do they need any special care?

I need to decide by tomorrow, unless she sells before then of course.

**EL Ziggy** · 05-28-16, 07:41 PM

I don't keep jags strictly because of the neuro issues but I've read and heard that it doesn't negatively effect their eating, shedding, or breeding. If you can deal with the head wobble they're just like any other carpet.

albertagirl · 05-28-16, 08:10 PM

*sigh*
I know she's going to be beautiful and a sweetheart, but I feel unethical buying a snake with a known neural issue. I think will probably pass on this one, and stick to the plan of carpets next year... or at least later.

phassin · 05-28-16, 08:16 PM

I've got a jag and he's easy as can be. He will go upside down some times and lose his balance here and then, but over all he's a great pet. The neuro doesn't affect his ability to eat or slither around (it may take him an extra second to get somewhere). I just think of it as his little handicap and love him all the same

I had a problem with it at first and was wondering if I should breed him. After really thinking about it and seeing that at the end of the day he's probably just as content as any other snake, I figured it's not such a bad thing. Some people disagree and that's fine. If there was a real negative affect on his quality of life then I would feel different.

MDT · 05-28-16, 08:50 PM

if they can eat and function without too much issue, i wouldn't think twice. if it's debilitating, then there may be a different answer to the question.

bigsnakegirl785 · 05-28-16, 09:57 PM

If you don't feel right doing, don't buy it. We don't know truly how stressful the condition is for them, so that right there goes against a code of ethics.

I feel morphs with known neuro issues linked to the morph (that can't be bred out) shouldn't be bred and I personally won't buy one knowing the morph has that issue. Same goes with other issues like reproductive issues or fatal combos. Doesn't matter to me how "healthy" it seems.

albertagirl · 05-29-16, 01:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigsnakegirl785

I feel morphs with known neuro issues linked to the morph (that can't be bred out) shouldn't be bred and I personally won't buy one knowing the morph has that issue. Same goes with other issues like reproductive issues or fatal combos. Doesn't matter to me how "healthy" it seems.

I feel the same way, which is why I would feel unethical buying her. If only she wasn't so darn sweet tempered! I wasn't even tempted until he took her out and put her in my hands. All I said to him was "she's perfect, if only she wasn't jag" and suddenly I was holding her. And you know what kind of trouble THAT starts!

Anyway, thanks everyone for your replies. It's helpful hearing other people's opinions, even though I'm sure this topic has been debated to death. I will hope to find another lovely calm carpet who also happens to know which way is up!

phassin · 05-29-16, 12:49 PM

Bigsnakegirl, I think the argument that "we don't know for certain" is flawed. We never wait until absolute certainty to deem ethical standards on anything. It is always based on inference, and from what we can infer about the jag mutation is that these snakes can roam just as freely and eats just as well as any other snake. Those are the standards in which we base any other snakes happiness. Why now can we not use it as evidence as the jag carpet being content?

If you feel it's still wrong then it's all good. I still appreciate the fact that you care about the snakes well being and want the best care possible. It's far better to debate the nuance of ethical care than to not think of it at all. I do want to know, however, if you are also against albino morphs? Albinism has certainly been shown to have adverse health affects related to light sensitivity and I would imagine that could lead to a more stressed snake. I've heard (though I have no evidence backing up this claim) that albino morphs tend to be more aggressive as well which could be evidence that they are in fact more stressed out.

Albertagirl, if you don't feel comfortable, then I totally agree you shouldn't get it. I think it's good that we have discussions on ethics and discuss the snakes well being. When I got my jag, I had no idea of the neuro disorders in the morph and so when I found out, I felt sort of like you. I really didn't know of it was okay to support breeding a snake that has problems, but after researching and observing my own snake, I realized that there doesn't seem to be much harm to the snake in any way due to the disorder. He actually seems much more content/better eater/easy going than the normal ball python I am baby sitting for the summer.

**Andy_G** · 05-29-16, 01:29 PM

This neuro issue is exhibited over a rather large spectrum. It can go from little or no head wobble unless under extreme stress all the way up to a complete inability to control the first third of the body at all times. In extreme examples some breeders and keepers will actually assist feed those who are unable to eat on their own, which makes me wonder exactly where some people draw the line. For some this neuro issue is a black and white subject, and for others it's a rather grey one. I won't get into that too much here because others have provided some great opinions, but I do feel I should mention that I think comparing albinism with light sensitivity vs the jag/spider gene wobbling/looping would be similar to comparing apples and oranges however. The proposal of heightened aggression/defensiveness in albino individuals is one I have heard before over the years but have seen zero evidence for.

Good discussion and I commend you on educating yourself on the matter before making a decision!

phassin · 05-29-16, 01:43 PM

Albert I wasn't trying to say they were the same in any sense other than comparing keeping mutations that could hypothetically have an affect on the snakes well being. Like you said, I have yet to see substantial evidence that they really are more aggressive, but I wanted to play devils advocate a little lol. I don't have any issues with keeping albino snakes.

**Andy_G** · 05-29-16, 01:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by phassin

Albert I wasn't trying to say they were the same in any sense other than comparing keeping mutations that could hypothetically have an affect on the snakes well being. Like you said, I have yet to see substantial evidence that they really are more aggressive, but I wanted to play devils advocate a little lol. I don't have any issues with keeping albino snakes.

I know and figured as much.

P.S.-Not Albert

phassin · 05-29-16, 02:24 PM

Sorry Andy! I thought of Albert's profile pic cuz we're talking albinos...

albertagirl · 05-29-16, 08:29 PM

I'm enjoying reading this. Great questions and well stated opinions! I was saved by the fact that she was sold by the time I got back there today, but I had pretty much decided not to get her anyway. There were great arguments for and against it, and in the end there were more factors against it which had nothing to do with the neural issues. I felt the responsible decision was to wait until I was really really sure about what I wanted and had the setup ready to go before bringing home a snake on an impulse buy, even if all of my impulse buys have worked out really well so far. Thanks so much for all of your input.

bigsnakegirl785 · 05-30-16, 08:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by phassin

Bigsnakegirl, I think the argument that "we don't know for certain" is flawed. We never wait until absolute certainty to deem ethical standards on anything. It is always based on inference, and from what we can infer about the jag mutation is that these snakes can roam just as freely and eats just as well as any other snake. Those are the standards in which we base any other snakes happiness. Why now can we not use it as evidence as the jag carpet being content?

If you feel it's still wrong then it's all good. I still appreciate the fact that you care about the snakes well being and want the best care possible. It's far better to debate the nuance of ethical care than to not think of it at all. I do want to know, however, if you are also against albino morphs? Albinism has certainly been shown to have adverse health affects related to light sensitivity and I would imagine that could lead to a more stressed snake. I've heard (though I have no evidence backing up this claim) that albino morphs tend to be more aggressive as well which could be evidence that they are in fact more stressed out.

Albertagirl, if you don't feel comfortable, then I totally agree you shouldn't get it. I think it's good that we have discussions on ethics and discuss the snakes well being. When I got my jag, I had no idea of the neuro disorders in the morph and so when I found out, I felt sort of like you. I really didn't know of it was okay to support breeding a snake that has problems, but after researching and observing my own snake, I realized that there doesn't seem to be much harm to the snake in any way due to the disorder. He actually seems much more content/better eater/easy going than the normal ball python I am baby sitting for the summer.

I'm more concerned with unavoidable health issues, like wobble, reproductive issues, fatal combos, etc. I am not against issues like light sensitivity or scaleless snakes, as long as the owner is willing to take extra precautions to ensure it's safety and health. Also, from what I've seen, albino snakes do not have the same health issues as albino mammals, such as increased risk for cancer. They can be exposed to the same amount of light as a normal snake, although some individuals may not like it on their eyes. In which case you can either offer no light, a dimmer light, or hiding places under the light to allow them to escape it. Neither of my albinos are adverse to light. At least, they do not avoid it.

Also I've never even heard of the aggression issue you mentioned....Neither of my albinos are defensive let alone "aggressive," and I've never heard of a single other keeper making that sort of claim.

And yeah that's par for the course with your jag vs ball python. Ball pythons can just be finicky snakes in general. It's not a matter of the jag's wobble not interfering with it but the fact it's not a ball python. Carpets can be picky from what I hear but not on the same level as ball pythons.

shaunyboy · 06-11-16, 11:08 AM

i have kept many jags over the years some showed no neuro issues while in their tank moving around,feeding etc

they did get a bit flappy/flighty and panicy when you took them out or handled them

personally i wouldn't buy a jag that showed a lot of neuro issues

re breeding
i have seen jags with NO real visable neuro issues go onto produce a clutch with BAD neuro issues

i have seen jags with BAD neuro issues,go onto produce a clutch with no visable issues

so it's a hit and a misss,when you breed jags mate

cheers shaun