So 3 Injections Later and It's Only Gotten Worse

Tiny Boidae · 04-06-16, 07:47 AM

The Baytril, so far, has done diddly squat to help Al Capone's RI. If anything, it's only gotten worse. The clicking is a lot louder and more frequent, and I lifted his lip because it looked like he'd gotten Eco Earth in his lip, and there were little bubbles. Should I take him back at this point? Or should I wait a few more injections before deciding? I understand that it takes a while to treat, but the medicine is hardly slowing down the infection and I'm afraid to lose him at this point, plus I still haven't heard back about the culture that they supposedly took. Any advice?

**Minkness** · 04-06-16, 08:25 AM

Have you upped his temps at all?

Also, if the meds aren't working, the RI may be a different thing since they can be viral or bacterial.

Tiny Boidae · 04-06-16, 08:30 AM

Yeah, his cool side stands at around 80 while his warm side is at 95.

macandchz · 04-06-16, 08:35 AM

dear tiny, i would take him back to the vet at this point. things could happen quickly and he could get a lot worse. hoping for the best.

**Minkness** · 04-06-16, 08:35 AM

Could be higher tbh. Aaron is alot more knowledgable about this stuff. I know that I have had one with RI and ine with pneumonia (git them that way) and they were on different meds and kept in a smaller, hotter spaces. The RI was gone in 2 weeks and the pneumonia in about 3-4 weeks.

**Aaron_S** · 04-06-16, 09:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tiny Boidae

The Baytril, so far, has done diddly squat to help Al Capone's RI. If anything, it's only gotten worse. The clicking is a lot louder and more frequent, and I lifted his lip because it looked like he'd gotten Eco Earth in his lip, and there were little bubbles. Should I take him back at this point? Or should I wait a few more injections before deciding? I understand that it takes a while to treat, but the medicine is hardly slowing down the infection and I'm afraid to lose him at this point, plus I still haven't heard back about the culture that they supposedly took. Any advice?

Follow up on the culture. What kind of culture did they do? Tracheal? Essentially it washes some stuff out of their lungs to get the actual bacteria.

Usually vets start Baytril since it's broad spectrum until the culture results come in and make a switch if necessary.

What I'd begin to consider is that it's viral and then it is a whole new level.

Tiny Boidae · 04-06-16, 09:47 AM

I'd gotten mixed up I think. I never saw the veterinarian, it was a hectic day for them because of a storm system that kept roads closed and such, but a vet technician came and walked me through the treatment plan and kept referring to it as Baytril. I called them to discuss his lack of improvement and we're going back in Friday, although they clarified that the medicine he was on is Fortaz... I did check the bottle of it and it had said Fortaz on it if that makes a lick of difference. How much more of a temp boost would you recommend though?

Edit:
Didn't see your post Aaron. I don't know what kind of culture they did to be blunt. The vet wasn't going to be able to get in until after my appointment because a lot of the back roads were closed off due to a storm system. I was just assured they did one when I asked about it. They offered to reschedule when I showed up, or leaving the snake overnight and I'll pick him up in the morning. I opted for the 2nd option and regret it to be honest.

What would be my treatment options if it is viral though?

**Aaron_S** · 04-06-16, 09:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tiny Boidae

I'd gotten mixed up I think. I never saw the veterinarian, it was a hectic day for them because of a storm system that kept roads closed and such, but a vet technician came and walked me through the treatment plan and kept referring to it as Baytril. I called them to discuss his lack of improvement and we're going back in Friday, although they clarified that the medicine he was on is Fortaz... I did check the bottle of it and it had said Fortaz on it if that makes a lick of difference. How much more of a temp boost would you recommend though?

Fortaz and Baytril are both broad spectrum. They are still shooting from the hip and hoping what bacteria it is will be killed by these. This is how we end up with resitant strains of bacteria.

Insist on a culture being done. It's usually fairly cheap. It'll cost more in the long run to keep pumping antibiotics that aren't doing anything as these antibiotics can supress the symptoms but not the whole infection. Snakes get better for a time but then have a reoccurance.

If they don't do the tracheal culture then consider finding a new vet. Regardless of how busy it is they NEED to do this.

Edit: You edited your post with a question. Viral is usually not the case but treatment may not be possible if it is since as to my knowledge, a virus can't be killed.

**Minkness** · 04-06-16, 09:55 AM

To add to what Aaron has said, also bump the temps about 5 more degrees. This allows the snake's own immune system to work more efficiently.

Albert Clark · 04-06-16, 10:04 AM

TB, hey. Reptiles don't get ill all of a sudden they usually harbor a sickness for awhile b4 we really notice it. Likewise, they heal slowly so don't be too surprised if they seem to get worse b4 getting better. Certainly, it could be a organism that is not responding to the particular antibiotic but that is what the culture should be able to identify. Reptiles are usually on these medications for a couple of weeks to a month or more to adequately eradicate the illness. I think your temps are bumped up enough at 95f. Hope this helps a little. Hoping he gets over this soon.

MDT · 04-06-16, 10:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aaron_S

If they don't do the tracheal culture then consider finding a new vet. Regardless of how busy it is they NEED to do this.

Edit: You edited your post with a question. Viral is usually not the case but treatment may not be possible if it is since as to my knowledge, a virus can't be killed.

Aaron is correct. The proper diagnostic testing must be done (kinda like doing an X-ray on your leg when you have belly pain), and the organism must be identified (Culture AND sensitivity). If you had Strep pharyngitis and tried to treat it with Zithromax, you may or may not be successful, depending on what part of the country you live in. In OK (where I practice), Strep is about 50% resistant to Z-max, so it's a crap-shoot whether it will work or not.

Then the whole issue of viral vs bacterial comes into play. If your snake doesn't even have a bacteria to treat, but rather a virus (think "bronchitis"), you are SOL. It has to run the course...there is no medication other than supportive treatment (husbandry) to help get over it. I think Minkness' suggestion of bumping temps is really good, especially for an ectothermic animal...their immune system partially relies on the surrounding temps.

I hope things turn around for your snake, I really do...but this is about par-for-the-course when unqualified "practitioners" (human or vet...in your case the vet tech) try to play doctor and then can't figure out why things aren't "working"...

yeloowtang · 04-06-16, 02:57 PM

I will also agree with bumping the temps a little, NOT the hot spot that's ok where it is , but get the ambient temps to 85... no low spot under that. the snake needs warmth to get better but a sick snake will seek the cold side to slow down it's metabolism in order to save energy..
I would also clean the cage daily and change the water bowl too to help limit contamination.
once you et results from the culture, with any luck it will need the same meds and you just need to keep going.. fortaz is usually injected every 3 days where as baytril is every 2 days..

Tiny Boidae · 04-09-16, 06:59 PM

I've followed through with the advice yall had given. I bumped up the ambient temps and had taken him to different veterinarian Thursday for the culture. I've had a much better experience with them, and already Al Capone is responding better to the medicine they've prescribed. They're keeping up with the fortaz but added another antibiotic (that I don't know the name of), and I've seen a drastic improvement between then and now. There's still a bit of clicking and mucus, but I kid you not it's a light and day comparison as to how he was Wednesday. He was all gunked up and drooling bubbles, and now he seems to finally be responding to the treatment. Not to mention, and this is completely unrelated, but he'd shed today as well (all in one piece, no problem there). I'd went to take the skin out, with him curled up in the leaves of one of his plants on the other side of the tank, and he started rattling his little tail. Before he'd gotten sick, he'd buzz his little tail all day long if he even *thought* he saw something move way off in the distance. He'd musk a little, never bite, but his philosophy with tail rattling was to buzz now and ask questions later. I hadn't noticed until he'd started doing it again, but he pretty much dropped the ball on tail rattling when he started getting sick. I finally got all the eco earth out of his lips, he's got some new skin to wear and tear, and he's finally starting to beat this RI! Bet he feels like a new snake...

But thank you for all of your advice, it really has helped a lot and steered me in the right direction.

**Minkness** · 04-09-16, 07:18 PM

Great to hear! I'm glad to hear he's doing better. If only every person were like you and took advice! No better person to have such a snake. Congrats and good luck on further progress?

macandchz · 04-11-16, 02:39 PM

so glad to hear he's doing better.sometimes it takes a few days for those antibiotics to click in. keep us posted on his progress.