Venomoid Question

[jparker1167]

when i said that a cobra was just a corn snake with a hood that was a joke, im missing the point in what ? that some people buy venomiods to be cool. no i dont think im missing the point i have seen more then a few people at shows buying venomoids so what point am i missing ? venom aids in digestion and can shorten lifespans ? snakes can digest fine without injecting venom. i feed all my hots frozen and they dont inject venom they digest just fine.. are you saying that if a snake does not inject venom into prey that they will have a shorter life? if that is what you mean then please tell me where you came up with that cause i have never heard that.

[Joel La Rocque]

When it comes to Venomoids, no one agrees on the same reason for having one. I naturally am 100% against a vet. or God preforming this procedure and I can tell you why very easily.
I look into the eyes of all my animals prior to taking them out of their tanks. Snakes have expressions and after a while you can read their eyes. I see a proud animal that can stand one on one with any other breathing animal in its path. Sometimes it wins sometimes it looses but it is always a fair fight. I see an animal that should it escape or be set free would be able to fend for itself and go about a normal life. I see an animal that either accepts me as an equal and does not strike at me when I handle it or an animal that wants no part of me and I release it. I see a fire, a sense of pride, a sense of equality in their eyes. I look into the eyes of a venomoid and I see a beaten animal that depends upon the mercy of others for its upkeep. No fire, very little pride and a ghost of its former self. It does not fear death, it awaits its end with regret, thinking of how it use to be. No, I want no part of a venomoid but should one come my way, I would treat it with all the love and respect I could afford it. Before I would take part in such an act, I prey that my end come swiftly because I had gone back on everything I believed in and loved. I want no part of a butchered snake and I would never be seen with one. Joel

[jparker1167]

Originally Posted by Joel La Rocque

I see an animal that either accepts me as an equal and does not strike at me when I handle it or an animal that wants no part of me and I release it.

i dont understand that part. are you saying that the snakes are considering you an equal and thats why they dont bite ? i saw your post where you said. "I have 57 bites under my belt in 40 years" that sounds like your proud of it to me. how did you manage so many bites. how old are, how old where you when you started keeping venomous.. that sounds like a lot of bites for a average person unless your a venom extractor. other then that i wouldnt see how the average keeper takes 2 bites a year.

[Joel La Rocque]

If I could get my hands on the animal who was responsible for strapping that snake down two things would happen: #1: He would receive the worst beating in the history of the United States and when I was through #2: I would end up in jail and go gladly knowing I did nothing wrong. Does anyone know the names and addresses of the animals / butchers who did this? If you have one ounce of integrity or conscience, you will email the names and addresses joellarocque@gmail

[Smilts]

Wow a lil over the top maybe!!

[gonesnakee]

Searching.......
Seek & Destroy!
Ya People can be such vile creatures afterall
Ask the poster about the source of the pics, posted from some site? Mark

[Chu'Wuti]

i saw your post where you said."I have 57 bites under my belt in 40 years" that sounds like your proud of it to me. how did you manage so many bites. how old are, how old where you when you started keeping venomous.. that sounds like a lot of bites for a average person unless your a venom extractor.

JParker, if you managed to see that post, how is it that you don't know the answers to your questions? Joel has good reason to have that many bites, and I'll bet a considerable amount that that number of bites is a quite small percentage of the number of times he's handled venomous snakes. You're not talking to an inexperienced hots person there, JParker. You'd know that if you'd been reading Joel's posts with more care.

I went back and found his introduction in which he states that he has sometimes handled over 40 venomous snakes in a day. Let's say he handles 30 on an average day. Multiply that times 365 days in a year and then times 40 years in the business . . . 57 divided by that number of handlings . . . very small percentage. You can do the math.

[Smilts]

57 bites for any reason even over period of 40 years appears to discredit most anyone!! Not an attack just a observation. Me Im to clumbsy to even consider working with hots, I'm pretty sure it wouldnt take long for me to DIE.........

[jparker1167]

chu'wuti no i read the post just fine the first time. you think taking almost 2 bites a year is normal for venomous keepers ? I'm sorry but handling 40 venomous snakes a day is not really a good reason to me.

i don't know if your do or don't keep hots chu'wuti but i have lots of friends that keep hots that have not had near that many bites. in the puff adder post on here i said about my friend that lives near me he started keeping hots when he was 14 and started with puff adders hes around 50 years old now so hes kept hots around 36 years. he has taken a total of 3 bites one of which was a fang that got through an air hold in a deli cup at a show. and he had 200 adult venomous breeders at one time 80 where albino cobras he hatched out more then a 100 cobras a year plus the others he kept.

so i don't agree that 57 bites in 40 year even handling 40 hots a day is a great record sorry if you don't agree. i believe Mitch from diamond reptiles has over 200 cobras alone that's not counting the rattlers gaboons puffs ect.. and i don't think hes taken any where near that amount of bites.

[heloderm]

57 bites in 40yrs is a rather bad record! I've been keeping and now breeding hots for 6 years and I have yet to take a bite (knock on wood). I have friends that have never taken a bite and have worked with hots much longer then I have. Luck has been on your side! Sounds to me like you need to take a step back and look at what has caused so many bites and what you can do to change that. The way you are going about things (handling, cage cleaning and what not) obviously isn't cutting it and your doing something drasticly wrong!

John

[MegF]

Terri Phillips handles probably an equal amount of hots working as a reptile curator at the zoo in North Carolina and heading up the venomous and I don't think he's had many bites if any. My buddy has been keeping crotalus species since he was in his teens and has had hundreds if not thousands of snakes over the years. He's in his early 50's now and received his first bite ever 6 years ago. As far as venomoids, I'm totally against them. You either gain the skills necessary to safely handle venomous, or you don't keep them. Not only is the surgery cruel to the animal (most reputable vets will not do it) it gives the keeper a false sense of security that leads to complacency. Respectfully Joel, your assessment that a snake thinks about what happens to it or is pining, respecting or anything else is giving a snake a little too much credit. A dog doesn't even think about yesterday. Today is his now. They don't lay awake at night thinking about the pound they used to be in, they just know that now they are in your house. A snake thinks about food, sex and shelter. Some recognize their keepers, tolerate us and some even seem to like us a bit, but they don't have the brain capability to pine away with grief at the loss of venom. I do think they can be traumatized or injured to the point where shock affects their systems and creates illness and a lack of well being though.

[snakedude-uk]

OK, I'm going to go back to the original point on venomoids here rather than who's been bitten by what and how many times.

As has been said already, if the surgery wasn't carried out correctly then there is a risk of the glands re-growing. As an example I quote a friend of mine -

him - "that's my east african gaboon, the venomoid one, trouble is he'll only eat live"

you can see where this is gonna go right????

me - "right, how does he manage that then?"

him - "he usually bites it and waits for it to die"

me - "how quick does that usually happen?"

him - "they normally take about 2-3 steps then keel over"

me - "right, that was the one you said was venomoid wasn't it???"

him - "oh $h1t!!!!!!!!!!"

Admittedly he had been treating the snake as fully venomous and working with it as such but this shows the mistakes that can happen. I believe having looked at the snake closely that it's venom gland had regrown as the head shape was slightly deformed possibly due to the growth of the gland, however this is no excuse for the mistakes he had clearly made!


As for how to learn with venomous, I personally feel there is no substitute for experience and the best way to gain that is to find a mentor who will show you how to handle a hook and how to balance a snake on the hooks and who will also allow you to work on their animals, hey at least it's free labour for them!! lol

Having said that, I went in at the deep end and having read about venomous snakes for many years I imported some from Africa and my first experiences were with Rhinoceros Vipers, Gaboon vipers, Spitting Cobras and Sand Snakes. In the next season when I imported some more, I bought in some Green Mambas and some Bush Vipers and they were amazing animals which I would love to have more of when I have the time and space for them.

Hope this adds to the discussion.

Kind regards,

Mike

[BruinsBeard]

Originally Posted by snakedude-uk

As an example I quote a friend of mine -

him - "that's my east african gaboon, the venomoid one, trouble is he'll only eat live"

you can see where this is gonna go right????

me - "right, how does he manage that then?"

him - "he usually bites it and waits for it to die"

me - "how quick does that usually happen?"

him - "they normally take about 2-3 steps then keel over"

me - "right, that was the one you said was venomoid wasn't it???"

him - "oh $h1t!!!!!!!!!!"

:

Great story !

[MegF]

No matter what....a gaboon bite would not be fun...venom or no venom. Those substantial fangs will leave some pretty bad holes in your hand! I'd sure hate to trust some unknown and probably garage done surgery.

[Joel La Rocque]

I would really love to get off the who has more bites saga! I don't care if you are the only reptile handler at five Zoos, A Zoo handler may actually pick up five snakes a day, at best, if he or she is doing their job right. I was handling over 125 snakes a day seven days a week, do the math. Bill Hasst is another idiot like myself but he has over 170 bites in his career, Hershel Flowers and Tim Freide are two more people with an affliction. You can stand outside a glass cage full of taipans for 50 years and not receive one bite. What the Hell does that prove, it is MATH. If you handle that many animals a day there are going to be accidents and that's that. In the first part of this post I said I was an idiot, there you have it from the horses mouth, case closed spread the news. As for snakes thinking, they have not been studied scientifically enough to prove anything. Any one can compile up enough data to support his or her beliefs. I know my animals and neither you or anyone else will change what I have witnessed and come to believe. Ask your self, "Why can I go into a room with 30 venomous, fully functional fangs in place snakes and reach in and carry them around like a Garter snake?" I sure as hell do not have any special gifts! Maybe its my aftershave? Who knows but I do it all the time and have the pictures on hand. One person did not believe it and pestered me so much I let him order me with three snakes in any pose he wanted (Reasonable) with that days newspaper. That was the only thing that shut him up. I am not ranting, but it does get old answering the same questions over and over, I get no less then 75 emails a day from people want to know something and I answer every one of them. It is to the point of sending a form letter. I am a sixty year old normal guy that has worked with snakes for a little over forty years now and that is all I am. I might add that I have enough respect for you and the others who ask to drop a subject that I do not subscribe to, I don't hastle you, why do it to me? If you believe I am nuts, well maybe I am but lets not spread it around.

Thanks Joel