Bermese Python Mites

[mrkjf]

I have a 6ft4 Bermese,ive had him under a year and its the second time hes got mites any old recipies for prevention rather than cure?

[Terranaut]

Well you have to ask a few things.....
Did you kill them all the last time?
Are you picking them up from another reptile somewhere?
Do you have other snakes and if so did you treat them as well?
Search Pam and/or Nix on this site. Follow the directions we have given to many people on here. This ensures question #1 is a yes. Then from that point on if you visit a reptile expo or see a friend with reptiles ensure you are mite free when you get home. New cloths. Some people even shower right away. This ensures question #2 is a NO. Then be sure to treat all reptiles in your care. Follow the instructions carefully. This will fix question #3. If you do all of this you will not have mites any more and should never get them again.

[StudentoReptile]

Better bio-security.
Always wash your hands before and after handling other snakes.
Avoid touching anything at a reptile show.
Make sure your animals are healthy and cared for properly.

In all actuallity, all snakes have mites. Period. You may not see them all time. A healthy snake can tolerate a few. It is when the snake is unhealthy that the populations blooms out of control.

[SnakeyJay]

In all actuallity, all snakes have mites. Period. You may not see them all time. A healthy snake can tolerate a few. It is when the snake is unhealthy that the populations blooms out of control.


Really? I'm not saying your wrong I've just never heard that all snakes have them all the time.. I've checked mine over regularly and never come across any.

[StudentoReptile]

Again....the eggs and larval (?) stages are almost microscopic. There are many small external parasites that follow any given snakes' lifespan, and a healthy animal can deal with it. It is when improper care, and the subsequent maladies that follow (RIs, "scale rot," dehydration, etc.) that can trigger a bloom in the mite population. Then the snake is overloaded with mites, which lead to further dehydration and/or RIs. The keeper treats for mites, thinking that is the cause of the problem, not just another symptom. Then everything goes back to "normal" for a while, meanwhile the snake is still being keot in the same conditions, and a few months later, whaddaya know....the mites are back!

[Terranaut]

Better bio-security.
Always wash your hands before and after handling other snakes.
Avoid touching anything at a reptile show.
Make sure your animals are healthy and cared for properly.

In all actuality, all snakes have mites. Period. You may not see them all time. A healthy snake can tolerate a few. It is when the snake is unhealthy that the populations blooms out of control.


Can you show me proof of this?
Not "having a go" at you but I am not sure this is accurate but if you have proof I will certainly consider it. My healthy as can be collection became a mitemare a little over a year ago due to me bringing them home from a local pet store. I have since eliminated them but my snakes were neither ill or living with poor husbandry. I can see a single grain of dirt on my sunglow female so even the smallest mite stands out on her.
Again not starting an argument but I would need proof to believe this statement .

[StudentoReptile]

Show me a entire snake collection where every specimen has had every inch of it examined microscopically and EVERY inch of the house is disinfected thoroughly on a weekly basis. Mites can hide nearly anywhere, and they are not restricted to the reptile room of your house.

My point(s) is this:
1.) Mites can be transmitted from one animal to the other simply by not changing your clothes after coming from a reptile show or pet store and handling one of your own animals. They're everywhere; on the vendors' tables, not just in the delicup with the snake.
2.) That said, most cases where mite problems arise again after several months...one has to ask: were they ever gone in the first place, or did the population just plateau at a minimum?
3.) People should look to correcting issues in their husbandry practices rather then automatically jumping to cure symptoms.
----
I'm not trying to say one should not utilize methods to treat mites or prevent them. And I'm not going to go through case-by-case either, because that would take 3-4 months' worth of retracing everywhere the keeper has been as well as the animal(s) in the question.

[StudentoReptile]

Personally, I use different cleaning products and tools for each species I keep. I do not use the same brushes, litter scoops, etc. for my sulcata as I do for my ball python.

[Terranaut]

Show me a entire snake collection where every specimen has had every inch of it examined microscopically and EVERY inch of the house is disinfected thoroughly on a weekly basis. Mites can hide nearly anywhere, and they are not restricted to the reptile room of your house.

My point(s) is this:
1.) Mites can be transmitted from one animal to the other simply by not changing your clothes after coming from a reptile show or pet store and handling one of your own animals. They're everywhere; on the vendors' tables, not just in the delicup with the snake.
2.) That said, most cases where mite problems arise again after several months...one has to ask: were they ever gone in the first place, or did the population just plateau at a minimum?
3.) People should look to correcting issues in their husbandry practices rather then automatically jumping to cure symptoms.
----
I'm not trying to say one should not utilize methods to treat mites or prevent them. And I'm not going to go through case-by-case either, because that would take 3-4 months' worth of retracing everywhere the keeper has been as well as the animal(s) in the question.


Again I will have to respectfully disagree. In the wild every snake may have a parasite but not in captivity. In the wild a snake can shed it's skin and leave the mites ( or most anyway) on the ground and leave. If the mites lay eggs there they may end up on another or even the same snake but they can swim or shed again and the cycle continues. Many of the hatched mites will never find a snake or another reptile to feed on and will die. Now in your enclosure the snake can not escape the mites or leave them with the shed. They crawl right back on your snake. 100% of the newly hatched eggs have access to your snake as there is nowhere for your snake to go. The point is 1 mite is enough to absolutely infest your collection in time and good husbandry is not going to do a thing to prevent it or aid your snake in fighting it off. I know my snakes do not have mites because if they did there would be evidence. Mites do not stay microscopic for long once the latch onto your snake. Within a few days their numbers grow exponentially. Wait a week to treat them and your snakes will be crawling with them. I would always 100% of the time suggest to any snake owner to cure the mites ASAP. Rushing for a cure is paramount to your snakes health. Mites are an immediate threat to your snakes health and should be treated as aggressively as RI. So again without proof of partial microscopic infestations I can not believe it exists.
Not every snake has mites and none of mine do currently.

I do agree with your safe expo practices.That is sound advice.

[jarich]

What you are saying SoR, can definitely be true of internal parasites and thats what it sounds like you are describing. Id agree with Dan though in saying that mites and other external parasites are not the same. They have a set life cycle that is noticeable to the naked eye and progresses regularly. If your snake has mites, they will be perfectly noticeable in a matter of days, and they will thrive regardless of the health of your snake.

[SnakeyJay]

That's what I was getting at Jarich.. That I've never even seen a single mite...

While I know they're microscopic at egg/larval stage they have to feed and grow, so eventually I would see one as I regularly give my snakes a close inspection.

[Mark Taylor]

I don't really know much about mites apart from I don't want them.

To the OP good luck with the mite treatment :)

[Donnie]

SoR I also have to disagree in certain points you made. Now I don't know about snakes conditions in the wild so I don't know if this is more what you were thinking about but my comments are based upon captive snakes.


In all actuallity, all snakes have mites. Period. You may not see them all time. A healthy snake can tolerate a few. It is when the snake is unhealthy that the populations blooms out of control.
No they don't and a snakes health has nothing to do with the amount of mites it may have. Mites feed and breed and will do the same whether the snake is healthy or not.

Show me a entire snake collection where every specimen has had every inch of it examined microscopically and EVERY inch of the house is disinfected thoroughly on a weekly basis. Mites can hide nearly anywhere, and they are not restricted to the reptile room of your house.
yes they will go anywhere but without a snake to feed from they will not hide out and survive

My point(s) is this:
1.) Mites can be transmitted from one animal to the other simply by not changing your clothes after coming from a reptile show or pet store and handling one of your own animals. They're everywhere; on the vendors' tables, not just in the delicup with the snake. agree
2.) That said, most cases where mite problems arise again after several months...one has to ask: were they ever gone in the first place, or did the population just plateau at a minimum? agree
3.) People should look to correcting issues in their husbandry practices rather then automatically jumping to cure symptoms. how will this kill the mites? Husbandry is irrelevant to the mites as they will survive in conditions that are perfect and not so perfect for snakes
----
I'm not trying to say one should not utilize methods to treat mites or prevent them. And I'm not going to go through case-by-case either, because that would take 3-4 months' worth of retracing everywhere the keeper has been as well as the animal(s) in the question.

Mites will always be brought into your collection and not always present in it, they need to be eradicated completely and then only if you follow good hygiene rules as detailed will you minimize the chances of getting them again.

[StudentoReptile]

Now some of you are starting to read too far between the lines of what I've said.

1.) I never said that proper husbandry will actually cure your snake of a current infestation.

2.) When I said mites can hide anywhere, I was referring to what Donnie commented on; if there is at least one snake in the house, they can hide around anywhere, not just the cage itself (carpet, clothes, rags, wood, etc.). If you do not keep snakes, then yes, you probably do not have black snake mites.

[Terranaut]

Now some of you are starting to read too far between the lines of what I've said.


How so???





In all actuallity, all snakes have mites. Period. You may not see them all time. A healthy snake can tolerate a few. It is when the snake is unhealthy that the populations blooms out of control.

This is what you said. "All snakes have mites" well the short answer is that this is wrong. You also said" It is when a snake is unhealthy that populations bloom out of control" and that is wrong too. Mites will bloom out of control on any captive snake period.

So then a quick question. Do your snakes have mites?

Now some of you are starting to read too far between the lines of what I've said.

1.) I never said that proper husbandry will actually cure your snake of a current infestation.
you said a healthy snake can tolerate mites which is not true


2.) When I said mites can hide anywhere, I was referring to what Donnie commented on; if there is at least one snake in the house, they can hide around anywhere, not just the cage itself (carpet, clothes, rags, wood, etc.). If you do not keep snakes, then yes, you probably do not have black snake mites.

This was established early in the thread and is pretty common knowledge.

[StudentoReptile]

How so???

Already addressed in my previous post.

This is what you said. "All snakes have mites" well the short answer is that this is wrong. You also said" It is when a snake is unhealthy that populations bloom out of control" and that is wrong too. Mites will bloom out of control on any captive snake period.

I suppose I should specify my earlier statement to say "All snake collections likely have mites, whether you are seeing direct evidence of their presence or not." Unless you have a closed collection where you are not intaking any animals into the collection, and/or you have a STRICT quarantine protocol in place that involves a completely different facility where new arrivals stay, I would be willing to bet that mites are somewhere in your collection. You may not see adult mites anywhere, but they're probably there in very small numbers that escape your notice. Those with larger collections, this possibility is greater IMHO.

So then a quick question. Do your snakes have mites?

Possibly. I have only had the 1 single snake for about 2 years, with no others. I can say I have not seen any adults mites in several years. But I haven't disinfected my entire house so I cannot say beyond a shadow of doubt that there are NO mites in my collection.

you said a healthy snake can tolerate mites which is not true

My exact statement said "A healthy snake can tolerate a few." Please make sure you quote correctly. Classic example of interpreting something that I said that I did not mean. And as addressed before, I never said that one should still treat/cure their collection for mites when they are discovered.

This was established early in the thread and is pretty common knowledge.

Yet people still seem to have difficult comprehending it; hence my emphasis on the matter.

[Terranaut]

I will tell you straight up. There are no such thing as a few mites in a captive collection. If you do not treat you will have more mites than you can imagine. A captive healthy snake in captivity ,in an enclosure can not tolerate them and if left untreated the sheer amount will have your snake in the water dish 24-7. It almost sounds to me like you have never dealt with mites in your own collection? You should never ever ever have them and if you do you need to destroy them asap. You do not alkow time for your healthy snake to deal with it, you do. Your collection could have mites? I would hope you knew if it did. I know my snakes are all clean. Mites will grow to huge populations in a very short period so if you had a couple in your collection you would have hundreds in just a few weeks.
By the way you did not specify your statement your changed it :(
What you changed it to is just less wrong than all snakes have mites.
I would hate for a new keeper to even worse a future keeper to be discouraged by this and not even get a snake. Not all dogs have fleas.

[StudentoReptile]

[chuckles to himself] You're almost making my points for me.

I will tell you straight up. There are no such thing as a few mites in a captive collection.

I heartily agree.

If you do not treat you will have more mites than you can imagine.

Also agree. I never said anyone should not treat their snakes for mites when they find them; but only that they should also look at the underlying cause (possible transmission from another animal, improve QT protocol, changes to husbandry, etc.) then simply just treat that one instance of infestation.

It almost sounds to me like you have never dealt with mites in your own collection?

Get your ears checked if it "sounds" that way to you. I have dealt them more than once. But believe whatever you want.

Your collection could have mites? I would hope you knew if it did. I know my snakes are all clean. Mites will grow to huge populations in a very short period so if you had a couple in your collection you would have hundreds in just a few weeks.

Well, then I guess by your logic, I don't have mites. Hooray for me and my snake.

By the way you did not specify your statement your changed it :(
What you changed it to is just less wrong than all snakes have mites.


LOL...if I had changed it, it would say so underneath; something to the effect of: "Last edited by StudentoReptile on such-in-such time/date." Go back and look. It DOESN'T say that, which means I never edited the post period, genuis.

I would hate for a new keeper to even worse a future keeper to be discouraged by this and not even get a snake. Not all dogs have fleas.

I never discouraged anyone from not getting snakes and for the umpteenth time [sheesh, no wonder people get fed up with this place, no one reads anything before posting!], I NEVER said one shouldn't treat mites when they find them. I'm only trying to encourage better QT and in general husbandry for everyone.

But believe whatever makes you sleep better at night, pet keeper.

[StudentoReptile]

BTW, fleas on a dog are not the same as mites on a snake.

[Lankyrob]

Having read all this i am with terranaut, people that have mites report constantly that the mite problem quickly gets out of hand and spreads through collections, so my understanding is that if one appears you have many and within a short period you will have many many more.

I have had my snakes for three years and havent ever had any signs of mites in my collection. I did quarantine all new animals away from my house and whenever i visit the reptile shop i enter my house, steip immediately and clothes go through a wash and i go in the shower.

Personally i think collections either have mites or have none, i dont see a middle ground of just having a few.

[StudentoReptile]

I may be inclined to agree with that, Rob. However, my statements are directed generally to the demographic of average keepers. Very few people employ such strict QT practices, as you do. Most folks just plop the new animal in whatever tub or tank is empty at the time; they do a quick wipe-over with disinfectant spray, toss the substrate in and then the snake. Granted, I've done it in the past when I was younger and less knowledgeable than I am now, and nearly everyone does it still. You might as well just stick all your snakes in one enclosure with that kind of practice (and people often do that as well, much to our chagrin!). Then they pull the snake out and put the tank in another room of the house and think they've solved the problem. Two months later, they still have mites.

All it takes is one little slip and you're going to get mites.

[Derek Roddy]

Don't want to get in the conversation so much as to post the best remedy for mites...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v321/derekroddy/kingsnake%20pics/Permethrin_10perc_8oz.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/derekroddy/media/kingsnake%20pics/Permethrin_10perc_8oz.jpg.html)

You can get this permethrin on amazon for under 20 buck and will last you 5 years.
Simply follow directions for mixing a gallon and divide the permethrin by half the amount said.
Safe plant extract that kills mites dead and safe for reptiles in the dosage described.

Cheers,
D

[Derek Roddy]

Oh yeah, and as a preventative...I spray all my floors and outside of my cages every 3 months.
I haven't had a mite breakout in over 10 years but, It always helps to be preventive as possible.

D

[Terranaut]

I am also considering the average keeper. These are the people who come here for advise. So telling them all snakes have mites to me is as bad as saying all snakes bite or some other crazy thing.


I suppose I should specify my earlier statement to say "All snake collections likely have mites, whether you are seeing direct evidence of their presence or not.

I said you changed from "all snakes have mites" not edited


Yet people still seem to have difficult comprehending it; hence my emphasis on the matter.

Who is having difficulty comprehending here?
Who can't admit they were wrong?
Yes I am very much a pet keeper. My snakes are not an experiment or an object to trade like pokemon cards or lego. They are living creatures I have chosen to keep in my care and I have chosen to be obligated to care for them as long as they live. I dislike ..no no I hate the term collection as infact they are my pets. I went on your site and I see you have recycled many animals over time... that's a shame for both you and them :(

[Terranaut]

Don't want to get in the conversation so much as to post the best remedy for mites...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v321/derekroddy/kingsnake%20pics/Permethrin_10perc_8oz.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/derekroddy/media/kingsnake%20pics/Permethrin_10perc_8oz.jpg.html)

You can get this permethrin on amazon for under 20 buck and will last you 5 years.
Simply follow directions for mixing a gallon and divide the permethrin by half the amount said.
Safe plant extract that kills mites dead and safe for reptiles in the dosage described.

Cheers,
D

Although it's exactly the same stuff a few people on here have messed up the mixes of that very product and killed their snakes. Not saying you can't use it or anything but the Nix or Pam treatments are idiot proof so a first timer may be better off going the slightly more expensive route just for the sake of simplicity. But the treatment choice is always up to the keeper and if they feel they can use that properly then yes it is super cheap.

[StudentoReptile]

I said you changed from "all snakes have mites" not edited

Then you are correct; I misspoke. I will concede that all snake collections have the POTENTIAL of snake mites, and will emphasis that the larger the collection is and/or the regular intake of new animals, the greater the risk. I apologize, and admit that although it is impossible to verify the following statement beyond a shadow of a doubt, not every individual captive snake at any given point in time has mites.


Yes I am very much a pet keeper. My snakes are not an experiment or an object to trade like pokemon cards or lego. They are living creatures I have chosen to keep in my care and I have chosen to be obligated to care for them as long as they live. I dislike ..no no I hate the term collection as infact they are my pets.

I was going by the definition of pets as "companion animals." You are going by the mentality that any animal that is not used for breeding could be a pet. I will admit that the term 'pet" is relative, but personally, I do not see my reptiles as companion animals like I do a dog or cat. So in that regard, I use the word "collection" when referring to all my herps. What term would you suggest to use as an alternative?

I went on your site and I see you have recycled many animals over time... that's a shame for both you and them :(

No one is perfect and I certainly am not. I freely admit my mistakes, and that is one reason all of those animals are listed on my site. Most of those animals you see on that list were when I was still in the "infant" stages of the hobby, and yes, many animals did not stay in my care for that long, either out of boredom, lack of space, need for more funds, etc. I rehomed, resold, and often downright gave many away. Many people do the same, especially when they are noobs. I'm not proud of it, but like to think that now, 10- yrs later, I am a much wiser person and not prone to the naive whims I used to have.

Unless you have NEVER done the same, and have kept every single animal you have ever owned until its natural death, then you, Sir, are a hypocrite for saying shame on me. Let's stick to the topic at hand, and not started digging into each others' past. Unless you really are the perfect pet keeper you claim to be, who thinks his own excrement does not stink, I'm certain there are some mistakes on your past. Care to share?

[Derek Roddy]

Permethrin is harmless to reptiles in these low doesages.
The aerosol in the PAM and Nix will kills snakes or make them neuro. I've seen plenty of local keepers buy that stuff and mess their snakes up with. And, forums are riddled with story's of nix and pam messing their snakes up.

The pure Permethrin (which is the active ingredient in nix and pam but, not the only ingredient) on the other hand has been used by most profession breeders in the industry for years and years without ill effect on their snakes. Most every keeper I know uses it and I've used it for 20+ years with no ill effects either.

It's safe for your reptiles if used as directed.

Cheers,
D

[Derek Roddy]

Also, you maybe thinking of pyrethrin...which is similar but, more concentrated than Permethrin.

Cheers,
D

[Terranaut]

SOR I am not a perfect keeper. I do not consider my snakes as companion animals. I have never ever brought an animal into my home that didn't stay until it died. Now mind you I have bred rabbits and hampsters and sold the young privately and do so with my snakes. So far I have stayed small and only done this for the experiece and to share them. I have never made money but would consider people breeding and selling as great. Its the buyer that has the obligation to keep it. If nobody bred we would not have a hobby or it would be horrible what people would (and still do anyway) take from the wild.
What I did not like about your statements was that people may read it as "I should never get a yucky reptile they have mites" or"don't worry about those few mites I have all snakes have some anyway" or even worse " if I alter my husbandry these will go away" . I can't imagine having mites to be very pleasant for the snake. Do you see what I mean?

PAM has pretty much only one way to hurt your snake and thats spraying it dirrectly on. Nix has no aerosol and can be applied right to your snake so I don't see what damage you could do with it. Back to PAM. It is much simpler to remeber not to spray the snake and to wait until its dry before putting the snake back than it is to mix Xoz with one gallon divided by 2. I am not suggesting the product is any more dangerous but the amount of human adjustment is more with bottled permethrin.
Most people asking about mites are first timers so again just my opinion but Nix is safest but PAM is better and diluting bottled permethrin is cheapest.

[Derek Roddy]

It is much simpler to remeber not to spray the snake and to wait until its dry before putting the snake back than it is to mix Xoz with one gallon divided by 2. I am not suggesting the product is any more dangerous but the amount of human adjustment is more with bottled permethrin.
Most people asking about mites are first timers so again just my opinion but Nix is safest but PAM is better and diluting bottled permethrin is cheapest.

Haha, yeah...I guess if you have no common sense or can't follow directions....yes you could mess your snake up.

Look, I'm not here to argue with you about it. Your experience with reptiles must trump my 35+ years....

All I'm saying is that this is the method most professionals use and is safe for your animals in that dosage.
I have sprayed permethrin directly in my hand and have the snake crawl though it (coating the animal) and put the snake back in it's cage...with no ill effects what so ever.

I guess I can follow directions huh? Haha.

D

[StudentoReptile]

Terra, it was never my intention to dissuade anyone from getting a reptile, just that mites are a problem that every snake-keeper deals with at some point or another, and that often, mites are only a symptom of an underlying issue. (I certainly do not view reptiles as "yucky!"). It was also not my point that corrective husbandry (which includes good QT) will cure existing mite infestations. Obviously, it is a given to treat mites when one finds them.

Granted much of my involvement in this hobby is spending 10 yrs as a pet store clerk talking to noobs all day.

[Terranaut]

Haha, yeah...I guess if you have no common sense or can't follow directions....yes you could mess your snake up.

Look, I'm not here to argue with you about it. Your experience with reptiles must trump my 35+ years....

All I'm saying is that this is the method most professionals use and is safe for your animals in that dosage.
I have sprayed permethrin directly in my hand and have the snake crawl though it (coating the animal) and put the snake back in it's cage...with no ill effects what so ever.

I guess I can follow directions huh? Haha.

D


Lol no I wasn't questioning you at all..it's dem der typez dat I worriez bout. No need to inflate chest ;) We did lately have a memember lose her snake because someone watching it for her treated the snakes enclosure with something they used many times before but botched the mix. Her boa stargazed and eventually died from over exposure. So again it's the human factor not the product. Other people have done the same. So however the op choses to kill them just be careful ;)

[KORBIN5895]

Permethrin is harmless to reptiles in these low doesages.
The aerosol in the PAM and Nix will kills snakes or make them neuro.


There is no aerosol in nix.

Also permethrin is a very dangerous chemical. It is even dangerous for children when ot is too concentrated.

Glad your method works for you and I hope your hand stays steady while you measure.

[Terranaut]

Terra, it was never my intention to dissuade anyone from getting a reptile, just that mites are a problem that every snake-keeper deals with at some point or another, and that often, mites are only a symptom of an underlying issue. (I certainly do not view reptiles as "yucky!"). It was also not my point that corrective husbandry (which includes good QT) will cure existing mite infestations. Obviously, it is a given to treat mites when one finds them.

Granted much of my involvement in this hobby is spending 10 yrs as a pet store clerk talking to noobs all day.

I would consider it an honnor to dirrect people in the right manner. Get them started off right and not with a fish tank and a ligjt bulb. I bet you made more impact than you think.