Just a quick point

[smy_749]

I decided with the new GTP not to offer a tub with 1 perch, or 3 pieces of smooth pvc or whatever. I put him in a viv with live plants, real branches and grape vine wood whatever its called, with 1 typical GTP 'perch'.

Well, he never uses the perch, and prefers the real branches with akward rough shapes and jagged points. He's also constantly exploring at night, and very fun to watch. Just figured I'd point that out for those who say they only offer what they offer because " he never moves from his perch". I think if you offered a larger viv, and lots of stuff, you would have a mobile snake on your hands.

And for those who will say he's trying to escape because the numbers are off, I thought the same at first. I left his viv open while he was roaming around and sat and watched him for almost half an hour, when he comes to the door, he would just turn around and go explore inside some more. He never left the viv in atleast 30 minutes of having it open.

[Pirarucu]

I decided with the new GTP not to offer a tub with 1 perch, or 3 pieces of smooth pvc or whatever. I put him in a viv with live plants, real branches and grape vine wood whatever its called, with 1 typical GTP 'perch'.

Well, he never uses the perch, and prefers the real branches with akward rough shapes and jagged points. He's also constantly exploring at night, and very fun to watch. Just figured I'd point that out for those who say they only offer what they offer because " he never moves from his perch". I think if you offered a larger viv, and lots of stuff, you would have a mobile snake on your hands.

And for those who will say he's trying to escape because the numbers are off, I thought the same at first. I left his viv open while he was roaming around and sat and watched him for almost half an hour, when he comes to the door, he would just turn around and go explore inside some more. He never left the viv in atleast 30 minutes of having it open.I have been telling people this forever. What do you know, if you don't force them to sit still, they don't! LOL... They prefer rougher branches mainly because they are much easier to keep a grip on than a smooth piece of plastic.
My retic has a natural setup (though it is smaller than I would like..) and is always either sleeping or on the move.

[smy_749]

I have been telling people this forever. What do you know, if you don't force them to sit still, they don't! LOL... They prefer rougher branches mainly because they are much easier to keep a grip on than a smooth piece of plastic.
My retic has a natural setup (though it is smaller than I would like..) and is always either sleeping or on the move.

Yea I don't think I'm going to offer the typical boring setups anymore. Its not worth it in my opinion to keep one and only look at it when I open the top of his tub....I was really expecting this little guy not to move much honestly. During the day he doesn't, but at night he is all over the place and baiting with his little tail haha, its too cool to watch. Red heat lamp and the cage is right next to my head when I sleep lol

[pdomensis]

I've always wondered why someone would keep something as beautiful as a GTP but put it on something as ugly and sterile as PVC or a closet rod.

[poison123]

Natural enclosures are the way to go :)

[smy_749]

I don't want to attack anyone using the sterilites. Not my intention at all. If your doing it from a cost benefit / convenience / maintenance stand point then fine, I understand. Its going to be just as healthy, and its much easier to clean and easier on the wallet if you breed them etc.

Just saying it for those who say that it won't be utilized and they like it better etc. etc. Or that its optimal.

[Derek Roddy]

I can't speak for the snake itself...whether it "likes" natural vs unnatural because they don't have a part of the brian that tells them they "like" anything.
All they know is if they are safe or not in their environment. If they are...they're "happy".
Yes, a naturalistic setup is nice to our eyes...but, the snake doesn't know the difference from natural and unnatural. It was most likely born in an unnatural environment anyway.
The only thing unnatural from a snakes point of view is being picked up by a larger animal without being eaten. Haha.

D

[bumblebat]

They probably don't have a preference, but snakes certainly know the difference. They're not as stupid as everyone seems to think they are. If you keep an animal in a box, that's what it is. If you give it an environment that it can interact with, they display natural behaviors.
I do natural vivs. Aside from the aesthetic appeal, I love watching my animals explore and hunt. I understand the reasoning behind tubs, I just prefer to have mine planted.

[poison123]

I can't speak for the snake itself...whether it "likes" natural vs unnatural because they don't have a part of the brian that tells them they "like" anything.
All they know is if they are safe or not in their environment. If they are...they're "happy".
Yes, a naturalistic setup is nice to our eyes...but, the snake doesn't know the difference from natural and unnatural. It was most likely born in an unnatural environment anyway.
The only thing unnatural from a snakes point of view is being picked up by a larger animal without being eaten. Haha.

D


A natural enclosure offeres a lot more then your average captive enclosure. And by "natural" I mean lots of soil to allow the snake to make its own burrow and gain moister similar to that of a monitor set up. I also provide my snakes with heat options with stacks. Top level around 140 and lower each level. To me my snakes seem much healthier. My corn will take down mice every single day if offered.

[Derek Roddy]

It's not a matter of whether the snake is "stupid". They simply don't have the part of the brain that tells them if they "like" something or not. Their brains don't have that function.

As long as the snake has several hides (warm and cool), water, A place to bask and the right overall temps and humidity...it has what it needs to survive. It doesn't matter if the those items are natural or un natural...the snake has no idea.

Cheers,
D

[poison123]

It's not a matter of whether the snake is "stupid". They simply don't have the part of the brain that tells them if they "like" something or not. Their brains don't have that function.

As long as the snake has several hides (warm and cool), water, A place to bask and the right overall temps and humidity...it has what it needs to survive. It doesn't matter if the those items are natural or un natural...the snake has no idea.

Cheers,
D

Any proof supporting you claims?

[Derek Roddy]

It's common snake biology. Look it up.

And, it's really not that hard to see if you really learn the animal and don't " assign" a personality to them.
That's the beauty of these animals in my opinion. If these animals could think or like things they would also know you.... The keeper.

Do a test..... Handle a rat then try to handle your snake. If it could think or like what it does it would not try to bite and wrap your hand for diner. Just like a mammal.... It would know you are a provider.
They don't.
That's because their Brain's are very different from our and they don't have all the same evolved parts that more evolved species have.

They don't have knowledge of self (a conscious or remorse.....feelings) and you would have to have that to like something.

Cheers
D

[Aaron_S]

They probably don't have a preference, but snakes certainly know the difference. They're not as stupid as everyone seems to think they are. If you keep an animal in a box, that's what it is. If you give it an environment that it can interact with, they display natural behaviors.
I do natural vivs. Aside from the aesthetic appeal, I love watching my animals explore and hunt. I understand the reasoning behind tubs, I just prefer to have mine planted.

Really? Snakes don't show natural behaviours in a tub? Are you sure?

My ball pythons hunt like they would normally in theirs. I'd consider that natural. They hold tight to their bodies in their bins too just like they would in nature.

I would go as far to say that they don't know the difference between the plastic tub termite mound I supply them with and if I supplied a real one. Both give the necessary amount of security.

Derek would be correct thus far.

[smy_749]

I think I'm going to agree with Derek on this one, from what we know at this point in time. If in the future they prove otherwise then thats fine, but when I see snakes I see an animal that evolved to be the perfect predator and stay alive, and thats basically it. If humans were small enough for our snakes to eat with ease, I don't think they would think twice about eating their owner either.

Thats why I keep snakes to observe them and marvel at how cool they are, but I don't name them and "hang out" with mine or feel the need to pet them.

For the keepers who say that their snakes do enjoy their company, and enjoy affection etc. etc. maybe Dereks argument about the rat is not the greatest. You could argue that he just gets confused etc. but when he knows its you and not a rat he loves you. The real test is to leave your snake to free roam, leave his cage open, and see how long he sticks around to be your buddy then..

As for the original topic, whether the snake will utilize his environment, know the difference, prefer one to the other, I think it may differ from species to species but we can't prove if the snake enjoys one thing more than the other, because we haven't figured out how to ask them. I was just pointing out the fact that mine utilized what was provided, rather than sitting around doing nothing. I don't know if he is having 'fun' though

[Derek Roddy]

I was just pointing out the fact that mine utilized what was provided, rather than sitting around doing nothing. I don't know if he is having 'fun' though

Oh yeah they will. They'll use and inspect any and everything that comes in their cage.
I provide all my animals with a place to climb, 2 hides....sometimes 3, several different basking areas, etc....they'll use all of it.
Even the BHP which aren't known as "climbers" will be sitting on the branches I give them from time to time.
Sometimes I even give them things from the yard (bark, pile of dirt, etc) just to stimulate them.

D

[poison123]

It's common snake biology. Look it up.


D

Can you point me in the right direction? I cant find any scientific evidence of this.

I know they don't have limbic systems which is where mamals emotions come from but reptiles are not mammals. There was a convo like this on another forum I personally don't believe reptiles have all the same emotions as us humans but they do have the ability to fear so who knows what else they have. I was hoping that you had scientific proof to support my claims as well.

[Derek Roddy]

Yeah, you could start with a book called "vertebrates" by kardong. It's a good book to have all around.
It shows the different parts of the body of most verts (including the brains) and what they're capable of from species to species based on the way they're brains are built.

Or you could search "parts of the brain"....learn what they do and compare to the snakes brian and, what it would be capable of based on it's simplistic design.

Cheers,
D

[poison123]

Or you could search "parts of the brain"....learn what they do and compare to the snakes brian and, what it would be capable of based on it's simplistic design.

Cheers,
D

So compare humin brains with reptiles? I don't think thats a good idea. Again reptiles may store their emotions else where compared to that of a human. We still have a lot to learn about the reptile brain.

I'll look into that book.

[Derek Roddy]

So compare humin brains with reptiles? I don't think thats a good idea. Again reptiles may store their emotions else where compared to that of a human. We still have a lot to learn about the reptile brain.

I'll look into that book.

I didn't say compare with a human brian....I said brain..any brian pick one.

They all function the same provided they have the same parts. Animals that don't have those parts don't use those functions. That's a scientific fact.

Snakes don't fear, nor are they happy. They maybe "threatened" but, threat doesn't = fear. Defense is a natural evolved reaction..fear is learned behavior.

I'll give you an example...
My Green Tree Pythons guards their water bowl at night waiting for prey to come drink.
They didn't "learn" that their prey need to drink water from being my cage it's whole life.
That's a built in evolutionary trait. So, is defending itself.
Defense has nothing to do with fear.

D

[jarich]

I dont think its quite that simple, Derek. Whenever discussing something as plastic as the brain, its hard to talk in any kind of absolutes. What is being discovered recently is that the assumptions about the function of various parts of the brain across species are having to be reevaluated. The evidence seems to indicate that reptiles, birds, etc use parts of their brains for functions and behaviours other than we use those parts of the brain for. Beyond this, it has been shown that reptiles also display lateralized brains, a very important discovery in better understanding the scope of function in reptile brains, and further evidence that reptile brains are much more developed than previously thought. What's more, there is very good evidence of learned behaviour in reptiles. Think of the extensive mapping required for home territories of various lizards, for instance.

Its an interesting subject, and one worth looking into further.

[Pirarucu]

I dont think its quite that simple, Derek. Whenever discussing something as plastic as the brain, its hard to talk in any kind of absolutes. What is being discovered recently is that the assumptions about the function of various parts of the brain across species are having to be reevaluated. The evidence seems to indicate that reptiles, birds, etc use parts of their brains for functions and behaviours other than we use those parts of the brain for. Beyond this, it has been shown that reptiles also display lateralized brains, a very important discovery in better understanding the scope of function in reptile brains, and further evidence that reptile brains are much more developed than previously thought. What's more, there is very good evidence of learned behaviour in reptiles. Think of the extensive mapping required for home territories of various lizards, for instance.

Its an interesting subject, and one worth looking into further.This. Also, it seems to me that you are referring to the fact that snakes lack the part of the brain that we think controls emotions in mammals. There are a few problems with the conclusion you have drawn. For the sake of argument, let's assume that that is really the part of the brain that controls emotions, as has been theorized.
Firstly, it controls the emotions felt by mammals. Do you really think they couldn't have evolved a different way to feel emotions, perhaps entirely diffeirent from the ones we are capable of feeling? Birds and insects evolved wings separately and they are very different in structure, but they both accomplish the same purpose. Perhaps to them, we are the ones who do not display emotions..
Secondly, you are talking about emotions, which are not quite the same as preference. Remorse, loyalty, and complex emotions are not in the same area as displaying preference backed by reason or instinct. Put a snake in a cage that is half natural and half sterile and see which side it uses.. We also see very frequently snakes that prefer one variety of prey over another. It's one thing to say that they don't display affection or sorrow in the sense that we can comprehend,but it's quite another to say they are unable to display any sort of complex behavior such as preference, especially when we see it all the time.

[Derek Roddy]

I dont think its quite that simple, Derek.

Of course it's not that simple but, it's science and that's what we know. Until it is rewritten.....that's what I go by.

Conditioning is different than actually learning. I guess you could say that conditioning is the basis for learning but, conditioning can easily be effected by one outside source.

For instance, the test in which a scientist took corns snakes and "conditioned" them to know where a safe place was. That's all fine and dandy....until you add food to the equation. The animal will choose food over safety....every time.
And that...overrides what was "learned"....making it not an actual learned behavior but, a conditioned one.
Snakes don't know that crossing a busy road could kill them...even though they've been doing it for as long as we've had roads. You'd think that if they could learn anything at all in all that time....it would be to go around or wait til traffic has passed.

Can reptiles be conditioned? Absolutely.

But, they can't "learn" not to cross roads because they might get killed. Again, something (mating, food, etc) over rides that "conditioned" response.
They simply don't have the "brain power".

It's very easy to see what they know and don't know how to do....just watch em.

D

[Derek Roddy]

Put a snake in a cage that is half natural and half sterile and see which side it uses..

I have.....and, it used both equally.

D

[jarich]

Of course it's not that simple but, it's science and that's what we know. Until it is rewritten.....that's what I go by.

Conditioning is different than actually learning. I guess you could say that conditioning is the basis for learning but, conditioning can easily be effected by one outside source.

For instance, the test in which a scientist took corns snakes and "conditioned" them to know where a safe place was. That's all fine and dandy....until you add food to the equation. The animal will choose food over safety....every time.
And that...overrides what was "learned"....making it not an actual learned behavior but, a conditioned one.
Snakes don't know that crossing a busy road could kill them...even though they've been doing it for as long as we've had roads. You'd think that if they could learn anything at all in all that time....it would be to go around or wait til traffic has passed.

Can reptiles be conditioned? Absolutely.

But, they can't "learn" not to cross roads because they might get killed. Again, something (mating, food, etc) over rides that "conditioned" response.
They simply don't have the "brain power".

It's very easy to see what they know and don't know how to do....just watch em.

D

If a reptile chose food over safety every time, we wouldn't hear complaints here constantly of "my snake stopped eating". They often choose safety over food. And as for crossing the road, well I suppose I would ask you how many humans are killed on the roads each year. Apparently we don't learn either. ;) What youre calling conditioning and learning is actually the difference between linear and abstract thought, and its relatively new even in human history. What you're doing is trying to maintain a separation based on perspective, and scientists did it for years. There used to be so many things that were exclusively human or animal, with learning vs instinct being a major one. Those lines started breaking down awhile ago though, and will continue to. The aim of science has always been to understand perspective in knowledge, and there are few subjects where that is as difficult to achieve as learning and behaviour.

There are numerous examples of reptiles learning though, with extensive geographical mapping just being one. Take a look at monitors learning color cues for food rewards, or crocodiles manipulating keepers through behavioral changes. Even frogs, what i would consider one of the dumbest animals around, learn to not eat bees after being stung just once. The evidence is there if you are open to finding it. The most interesting part is that this learning happens for them in areas of the brain other than those we use for this. In other words, form does strictly mean function when discussing the brain. It's a relatively new concept, and an important one.

[Derek Roddy]

I totally get what you're saying. I understand biology very well. There are so many variables when talking about this stuff.
I don't necessarily think that a snake that won't eat comes down to only safety. again...variables.Tempature, moisture, etc usually go hand and hand with a snake not eating.
Humans make a choice if we want to do dangerous things...You would think a reptile does this only to the point of which it was programed to do from being a hatchling.
They are discovering new things all the time and, it has been theorized many times about the learning ability of snakes but, in the 3 decades I've been keeping animals in a box (wild and captive born) I've never seen it displayed.

Of course, I'm basing my opinions about these animals based on what I see in my collection.
If I can keep an animal for 20+ years and, it never learns anything other than what it was programed to do (defend it's self if it feels threatened for instance.) it would be safe to say that the animal isn't made to "learn" but, to "adapt" based on the evolutionary process the species had made along the way.
It's the beginning process of learning but, as of yet they haven't proven if they can take that early stage to the next stage with their current brain structure.
You would think they'd "learn" that the cage door coming open didn't mean food every time but, mine haven't. Haha.

Cheers,
D

[jarich]

Ah, but see they did learn that the door opening means food. Youre assuming that they think it means food every time, but maybe they are just hoping thats the case. Maybe they are really pissed off every time you open the door and dont give them food. :D Seriously though, you do have to allow for the fact that we may simply be seeing things in human terms and so are so far unable to understand the true function of the snakes capabilities. As an extreme example, its like the past IQ tests that were made by wealthy white people in the 50s, which were used to show poor black people werent as smart. Its a reflection on the test maker as much as it is a reflection of the tested subject.

And would you not say that your snakes have different 'personalities', even within the same species? Probably the most animals of a single species I have owned are BPs, and even kept in practically identical environments they did exhibit some different characteristics from one animal to the next. So its hard to say that there isnt some individual brain function based on learning and manipulation. I know what you mean though, they definitely arent up to the level of any kind of higher mammal in their ability to process novel information. I just think that people automatically assumed things about animals in the past that its taken science a while to get over. Now that its becoming a little more acceptable to think outside that box, I think we will be surprised by what we find.

[Derek Roddy]

Again, I hear what you're saying. Nowhere in the conversation did I say that snakes aren't capable of lower level thinking..... You know thinking that fits their brain type. Everything you're discribing to me is lower leveling thinking. The ability to "like" something is beyond the capibility of their brains. There is no evidence anywhere of snakes Showing otherwise. Which was my whole point.

I do have animals that display different behaviors but, nothing in their personality but what I assign to them being the human I am. Haha.

If anything the thought of trying to make these animals more human than they are just shows us more and more that they're just that.... Animals.

Evolution is a beautiful thing because emotion is a handcap in the natural world. We've been here less time than any other animal and as time goes on.... Humans are become less and less emotional driven. Everything that has lead to human distruction outside of natural force have been emotion driven.... The need to selve our weak ego. That all comes with higher level thinkig.... such as liking and loving. A snake just does his thing without all that distraction.

D