Odd behavior.

[TheSuppishOne]

I don't know if this is normal or not, but I went to give him a nice warm (80 degree) soak in the tub yesterday because that stupid last piece of shed really bothers me, and he was really calm at first. For a minute or so, he just kinda floated in the water with his head up. Then, out of nowhere, he started freaking out. He climbed up the side of the tub and just stared at me. I put my hand close to him and he wanted to wrap around me. The water temp was perfect, so I have no idea what that was all about.

The weirder thing, though, is that when he freaks out, he does somersaults. Full on, upside down, twisting and turning. It looks like what people describe in Jag CPs as wobble. However, if I turn him upside down, he rights himself immediately. Is this a neuro issue other than wobble, or is my little guy just a weirdo?

Video: Flint in the tub - YouTube (http://youtu.be/VnykqPbWrP0)

(Just as a disclaimer, I only nudged him back into the water because AS SOON as I pulled my phone out to record what he was doing, he stopped doing it and rested against the wall. Kinda like when you take your computer to get fixed, it suddenly works again.)

[smy_749]

Thats not normal. Is this the new boa that you made the thread about getting from las vegas exotics?

[Starbuck]

it seems as though he is exhibiting the same behavior (rolling/C-ing backwards in the water) to a lesser extent as he is resting against the side of the tub, do you notice that as well? What i mean is that it looks as though he is exhibiting some mild star-gazing/equilibrium issues, like when a person has had too much to drink and rolls their head around?
Do you notice any behavior like that when he is just in his viv? i.e. does he keep his head elevated for extended periods, or seem to have difficulty moving around?
If so, i would make an appointment with a reptile vet as soon as possible, and bring the video as well. If not, it *could* just be a weird thing he does because he feels unbalanced in the tub. consider putting a piece of viv furniture in there with him so he has some traction/something to hold onto, while still in contact with the water?
Also, contact the breeder and ask him what he thinks?
Sorry i can't help you more :/

[rmfsnakes32]

That turning upside down behaviour is not normal I have soaked my Boas many times and have never seen them do that. Contact a vet asap.

[TheSuppishOne]

Yes, this is the snake I received from Ken at Exotic Pets LV. He has displayed this behavior since I got him, and no, it's not just in the tub. He stargazes in his viv as well. It has toned down quite a bit since the first day, but is still there for sure (less stressed?). He sometimes inverts his head entirely. For the most part though, he doesn't have any trouble moving around in his enclosure.

Thing is, when I originally saw this, I asked about it and looked for other threads on the topic. What the consensus seemed to be was that if I turned him upside down and he righted himself immediately, there were no issues. Plus, his strikes for food haven't missed yet.

[Terranaut]

Wow that's almost like a Jag Carpet with bad nero issues. I definitely think there is something wrong. Looks to me like he is stressing about the tub and not the water. The high stress is bringing this out. I would accept it or return it but IMHO your snake has an issue that is not going to go away :( Call the breeder ASAP. Show Ken the video.

[TheSuppishOne]

Are these neuro issues lethal? What are the negative effects of this behavior, other than looking really weird?

[TheSuppishOne]

Legitimate question. Could this be IBD?

[Mark Taylor]

One of my boa's hates baths freaks out big time but in his viv and being handled he is one of the calmest.

The tub seems to big to me also this may add to his stress, if he don't like water to much and has nothing to hold on to so to speak.

[Starbuck]

if he is exhibiting this behavior in the tub AND in his viv, that makes me much more concerned. I would contact the breeder first, show him the vid, see what he has to say, and consider returning the snake for a refund/exchange (lemon law; this may require that you take him to a vet to get a vet statement). I know that might be really hard because you guys have bonded with him and done a pretty good job thus far, but it may be a better choice in the long run (this is your first snake, right?).

If refund/exchange isn't an option for you, i would get him to a vet asap. They will be able to tell you if its just a neuro issue that wont cause any long-term issues vs something more serious like IBD.

otherwise, keep feeding him as normal, maybe lay off on the baths ;), and enjoy your pet (respectful to his health issues however :) )

[Terranaut]

I would avoid contact with anyone elses snakes for the time being. Yes there is a chance it's IBD but there are many other posibilities so don't jump to any conclusions. Also remember that if it is IBD , this will do a lot of damage to the breeders reputation so again, be sure of whatbit is before saying IBD. I do believe in taking precautions as if it is IBD now just incase, even if it likely is not. Better safe than sorry.

[TheSuppishOne]

If refund/exchange isn't an option for you, i would get him to a vet asap. They will be able to tell you if its just a neuro issue that wont cause any long-term issues vs something more serious like IBD.

A vet can really diagnose this? I thought it wasn't able to be diagnosed until already post-mortem...? Is this going to be a substantial bill?

[Mark Taylor]

Have you spoke to Ken to see what he his willing to do?

As far as I am aware it can be diagnosed by a vet but yeah it would be costly.

[Will0W783]

The definitive diagnosis for IBD/BOID is a postmortem brain examination; however, there are blood tests that can give a tentative diagnosis, and if a vet rules out other causes (genetics, toxin exposure, heat stroke) then it might be.

I had a gorgeous salmon hypo jungle male that exhibited stargazing after I had him for 4 months. He'd just come out of quarantine and one day couldn't move right or eat. He was doing exactly what your boa in the vid did, but all the time and severely. My herp vet diagnosed it as a genetic kidney disease through a blood test. The neurological issues were due to calcium buildup in the muscles. We tried everything we could to save him, but after a battle of 3 more months, I had to have him euthanized.

I would definitely contact Ken and also make an appointment ASAP with a qualified herp vet in your area. Be prepared to spend a few hundred dollars to sort out the issue. It cost me about $500 total in repeated visits for my boa. Another neuro issue that turned out to be an actual stroke in a retic cost me about $650 total, because I had extensive necropsy and postmortem disease testing run.

[TheSuppishOne]

I contacted Ken. Here was our conversation:

"Hey there Ken! So I bought a baby Dumeril's boa from you exactly one month ago, and have gotten really attached to the quirky little guy. I'm a bit frightened, though, because yesterday I noticed that what I considered quirky can, under stress, become more worrisome. He hasn't been able to get the final piece of shed off of his face, so I've been soaking him. Well yesterday I put him in the bathtub and took a video of his behavior.

Flint in the tub - YouTube (http://youtu.be/VnykqPbWrP0)

Does this raise any concern in your book? I don't quite know what to think of it, but as far as I know, the wobbling and turning upside down is not normal. He sometimes "stargazes" and inverts himself in his viv, too, just not usually to this extent. Thoughts?

Thank you and feel free to call me."

Ken - "This is sometimes a result of getting too hot. You might want to check your tank temps, but if it did fry its brain, although not life threatening, it could continue this action. Does it do this when not in water, just normally?"

Me - "My tank temps are fine. The water was slightly above room temperature (around 85 degrees), and my normal viv temps range from 75-80 on the cool side, and a solid 90 degrees on the hot side.

It's never to this extent when outside of the water, but he does flip his head upside down occasionally."

Ken - "I'm at a loss as to what's going on."

And that's all. I don't really know how to reply to the last one. I have grown attached to this little guy, but don't really want to spend $500 just to see if there may be an issue...

[Starbuck]

if you are willing to exchange/refund via the lemon law (at least, this is a law in NY, not sure about your area), i would be direct and upfront. Get a quote for an indepth exam from a local herp vet, then call Ken and say 'This is going to cost me XXX$ to figure out; what i propose is either an exchange (for another dum, similar value snake, or money), or are you willing to reimburse me the value of the snake, should it be something serious like IBD, or a genetic issue where you would need to contact the sibling's owners.'

Make it clear about what you are asking, what you are planning to do, etc. Start calling around local vets now, and ask how much an initial exam for a snake with neuro issues, that way you can compare cost/find out who knows herps well, etc.

Sorry, best of luck :( hope things work out.

[shaunyboy]

i'm NOT saying its IBD,but i have heard that over here in the UK,there is a new blood test that can be done to determine if it is or not,its not expensive but i don't know if its available over in the USA

when i watched your video,i thought it was just nervous and freaked out,at not being able to get hold of something to get it out the water

cheers shaun

[Mark Taylor]

Do you have a video of this behaviour in his viv?

[Snakesitter]

Don't jump to an IBD conclusion prematurely. It *could* be...but it also might not. Trust me, I went through a case where a misdiagnosis was made, and it turned out to be something else that was much less severe. (And a huge thank you to the forum for being cautious with that possibility.)

As for testing, the University of Florida has a blood-based option that can often detect IBD. It is the least invasive way to check, but is not 100% certain; as such, they recommend two test rounds separated by several months. The next option up the ladder is a tissue biopsy examined by a top reptile pathologist...but these are much more invasive and expensive. Even then, unless you send in the right tissues, the results may not be certain. Unfortunately, the only was to be (almost) 100% sure is a necropsy....and even that can yield false results, especially in the hands of an inexperienced pathologist.

In the meantime, keep the snake on hard, handle-me-last quarantine. (Which he should already thankfully be on.) And just in case it is something contagious, IBD or not, *BLEACH* the tub or anything else (such as tools) he has come into contact with, so as to minimize the chance of spread to your other reptiles.

Good luck to you, this will not be easy on your nerves.

[Starbuck]

I believe the OP has only this one snake; if so he can breath (a little) easier r.e. the quarantine thing. Still, keep things very sterile, handle him only as needed, and keep doing what your doing in terms of maintaining proper husbandry.
Any word from Ken/a vet yet?

[Snakesitter]

That does make things a bit easier. If so, only keep decontamination in mind if it turns out to be serious and you plan to get another animal afterwards.

[shaunyboy]

Do you have a video of this behaviour in his viv?

^^^^^
good idea mate,i to would like to see the above video

ive seen a few snakes that get that nervous,they launch themselves all over the tank in a very skittish manner

i think it was just nervously thrashing about in the water mate

cheers shaun

[TheSuppishOne]

Yeah, I've been watching for it in his enclosure lately and I really only see it when he gets nervous/excited. But I've noticed it lessening, too.

Maybe ShaunyBoy is right. Maybe it was just freak out behavior. It was the first time I've put him in water that was deep enough for his body to not be able to touch the ground at all times, and I have to keep in mind that as a Dumeril's, he is a ground boa...

I'm taking him to a vet anyway, as I feel that any new pet should get a "preliminary" checkup to make sure it's okay. Appointment is for Tuesday. We'll see what happens.

[bcr226]

Try this. Use a smaller tub inside the bath tub and put something in the bottom that he can grab onto. It looks like he's panicking a bit to me. If it were a neuro issue, I'd think he'd have issues grabbing the wall and righting himself. I could be wrong though.

He may be stressing a bit too with the experience which may be part of the reason for him acting that way in his viv.

First go with the smaller tub and something he can anchor too in the tub. Maybe don't make the water as deep either. If he still shows issues, get him to the vet.

[Aaron_S]

Snakes can swim. Nobody said they all can swim well. He looks frantic, stressed and just not able to really grasp the whole swimming thing.

Don't use soaks for a single piece of shed. A wet cloth, let the snake slide through your hands and it should peel itself off. You can wet the spot first too if you prefer.

[TheSuppishOne]

I greatly appreciate all the feedback. I think more and more that he must have just been under extreme duress because he couldn't feel the ground beneath him. I'm still taking him to the vet tomorrow, but I'm considering this to be an initial exam for wellness. The same as I would do for any other new pet.

As for the stuck shed, I've tried the wet towel method. It doesn't work right now. I'll wait until his next shed (due either this week or next), and if I still don't get a full shed, I'll look into alternate methods.

Changing course, I've noticed a distinctly different odd behavior. When I handle him (mostly just sitting on the couch with him on my chest/stomach, I'll sometimes reach toward him to grab my phone or something. Thing is, when I do this, he puts his face right on top of my finger and waits for me to start rubbing his chin. When I rub his chin, he looks straight at me and just sits there content. I happen to find this adorable, but is it normal?

[Mark Taylor]

TheSuppishOne I greatly appreciate all the feedback. I think more and more that he must have just been under extreme duress because he couldn't feel the ground beneath him. I'm still taking him to the vet tomorrow, but I'm considering this to be an initial exam for wellness. The same as I would do for any other new pet.

I'm sure he will be fine. :)

As for the stuck shed, I've tried the wet towel method. It doesn't work right now. I'll wait until his next shed (due either this week or next), and if I still don't get a full shed, I'll look into alternate methods.

It would help a lot if you left him in the correct environment (no point in us asking what the temps and humidity are when he is not in there) lol.

Changing course, I've noticed a distinctly different odd behavior. When I handle him (mostly just sitting on the couch with him on my chest/stomach, I'll sometimes reach toward him to grab my phone or something. Thing is, when I do this, he puts his face right on top of my finger and waits for me to start rubbing his chin. When I rub his chin, he looks straight at me and just sits there content. I happen to find this adorable, but is it normal?

None of my snakes do that but the I don't get them out to much.;)

[smy_749]

Your snake has stuck shed, and your worried he has some other issues, and your chilling with him on the couch? ...... What happened to try not to handle him unless its necessary?