whole shrimp

[reptile man]

is that ok to use as a staple along with his worms /dubias and crickets

[infernalis]

Yes, and a mice/rats and baby bunnies / chicks are all awesome foods.

[reptile man]

Yes, and a mice/rats and baby bunnies / chicks are all awesome foods.

ok thanks wayne

[infernalis]

The biggest growth spurt I saw was right after they started eating mice.

http://www.savannahmonitor.co/babies/images/eyes.jpg

[reptile man]

is cray fish good to

[infernalis]

crayfish are excellent...

[jarich]

Just wanted to make you guys aware of a possible issue. If you are going to be feeding shrimp apparently the same rules apply regarding keeping it a part of a varied diet, like feeder fish. Ive been reading up more on thiaminase and apparently a number of species of shrimp commonly sold (Penneus sp.) have incredibly high amounts of it. As you get most of this stuff frozen, it means the enzyme has even longer to work on the thiamine before it gets to you.

Again, if its part of a varied diet it doesn't seem like it should be a problem. (Thiaminase is eventually broken down during digestion, so has no cumulative effects on thiamine levels beyond that in the food it comes in contact with.) There is also a relatively cheap liquid vitamin that you can inject into the shrimp to alleviate the problem. Crayfish seem to not have this issue, especially as you most often get them live.

[fuzzhc]

Yes, and a mice/rats and baby bunnies / chicks are all awesome foods.

I too have been feeding alot of rodents to my bosc and yesterday his first chick which he practically flew for.

Today though I came across this site saying that rodents are a bad idea.

Rodents | The Savannah Monitor, Varanus exanthematicus (http://savannahmonitor.org/feeding/rodents/)

[jarich]

*tip toes lightly into the discussion*

That first sentence is definitely the kicker. Its a controversial topic on many forums, the feeding of rodents. Generally though, the consensus seems to be that feeding some rodents is good, but feeding just rodents has the potential to cause problems. There are repeated arguments on every reptile forum Ive ever seen about how much they eat them in the wild or even why thats applicable. In fact, Ive been in more than a few of them ;) I was very much a proponent of the idea that they should not be fed rodents. After researching it so much my eyes started to go buggy, Ive come to the conclusion that some rodents as part of a balanced diet can be good, an all rodent diet is probably not the best thing to do for the long term health of the animal.

For whatever reason, it appears that Boscs do not normally consume many saturated fats, instead consuming a diet high in unsaturated and polyunsaturated fats. What we know of comparative biology shows us that animals that consume diets low in saturated fats, that then are fed a lot of saturated fats, end up with chronic health issues later on as a result. Rodents contain a relatively high amount of saturated fats, and a low amount of unsaturated and polyunsaturated fats. Invertebrates contain mostly unsaturated and polyunsaturated fats.

Further, the health and metabolism of the monitor is a factor. If kept in good conditions (appropriate heat, humidity, etc) then the processing of some of these saturated fats, especially at a young age, does not seem problematic. However, if the monitor is not kept in these conditions and/or under-metabolized, then the saturated fats are a problem.

And in fact there is much to be gained by the feeding of some rodents. Rodents that are old enough to have their bones calcified have an good Ca:P ratio, which is important to note when many insects do not. They also are very high in Vit A and E, two vitamins that are incredibly important and sometimes overlooked (everybody knows to dust with calcium and Vit D3, but not everybody knows the Vit A and E content of the insects they feed). There are also certain situations where all that fat can be a good thing. Females cycling eggs have to have an incredible amount of food to metabolize to keep up with that production. Rodents contain a lot more calories generally than insects, in one package.

Bottom line is that if your monitor is healthy and able to metabolize properly (ie youve made a good enclosure for it and set it up right), then feeding rodents as part of a complete diet is fine. Though there are still some that may disagree, I would say that feeding Boscs exclusively or mostly rodents is a poor diet choice over the long term.

[infernalis]

I too have been feeding alot of rodents to my bosc and yesterday his first chick which he practically flew for.

Today though I came across this site saying that rodents are a bad idea.

Rodents | The Savannah Monitor, Varanus exanthematicus (http://savannahmonitor.org/feeding/rodents/)

Although that site has some sound information, the rodent debate is one place where Bill and I will not see eye to eye.

[fuzzhc]

Cool thanks for the explanation, it helped me understand the reasoning behind the diet alot more.
Mines is currently taking 2 smalls or 1 medium daily along with the locusts, fruit beetles, worms, shrimp etc. Think I may drop them to every other day then and maybe a chick every couple of weeks. Might try with crickets again also but he never really bothered with them in the past.

In saying that he does prefer his mice over anything but hel just need to do with less lol

[jarich]

Ya, once they hit a certain size they usually stop bothering with crickets and other small bugs.

A lot of them do really love mice, and it makes sense. Its a lot of calories in one package, something theyre evolved to seek out like a radar. For that matter so are we. There is a reason butter and bacon taste so very good to humans, for example (no Im not comparing the nutritional value of rodents to bacon, merely the comparative desire to go after these various high calorie/fat items first and why people and monitors find them 'tasty')

[Pirarucu]

Neat, I didn't know sav.org was back up yet.

As for the rodents/no rodents debate, I think it's agreed on that feeding nothing but rodents is a bad idea, but I believe some rodents in the diet are not a problem and are beneficial. I also believe that temps and dirt alone are not enough to keep them thin on a largely rodent diet, unless you are really cutting back on their intake. They need space to run around and work off those calories too, especially once they have stopped growing. Heat does not just make the fats disappear, it just allows the monitor to process them. They are still there though, and need to be burned up somehow. As a juvenile, energy is burned very quickly by the monitor's continually growing body. Once they reach adulthood that stops, and they need to be burned another way. One way would obviously be by breeding, especially in the case of females. But unless they are breeding all the time and/or have space to run and climb and dig and swim, I believe that they will grow fat even with proper temperatures. Someday I would like to set up some trial groups of Savannah Monitors, and see what really works best..

[savbill]

Although that site has some sound information, the rodent debate is one place where Bill and I will not see eye to eye.

Excuse my late reply, I've been out of town.

I pulled the sav.org site 13 months ago due to lack of time available to update it, and having put it back a few weeks ago I feel I should point out some bits of reality.

When I created the site in early 2009, there were zero resources available on the Internet talking about this type of monitor care in an easily digestible format. Daniel's Mampam site had no captive care information, Bob Mendyk's tree monitor site was long gone. Everyone who knew anything about monitors was hiding on varanus.nl except Dave Kirshner, who was singlehandedly making the uphill climb on forums trying to talk sense into people.

The most linked to information about Savs in specific was Melissa Kaplan's idiotic care sheet which recommended feeding "high quality dog food". The forums were full of loads and loads of nearly identical threads: the standard aquarium with that carpet or repti-bark, an 80F basking spot, the keeper pounding thawed rats into some barely-mobile overweight half-dehydrated monitor, and 10-15 people chiming in to say how awesome it all was.

From lurking about the past few weeks, it seems that type of thing has teetered over the half mark so it's becoming the minority rather than the rule. I'd like to be modest but I feel from looking at the insane web traffic still linking to sav.org that the site had a part in that.

I'm very surprised at how things have changed in the year sav.org was gone. It's fascinating to me there is now something called the "rat debate". This is profound because when the sav.org site was created, there was no debate, there were only forums full of dead monitors.

At this point I'll exercise some restraint of pen and refrain from going deeper, but it should suffice to say this is all a long way of saying that any dismissive tone toward the sav.org site as "that site" having "some" sound information is wholly unwarranted.

Thanks,
Bill

[infernalis]

At this point I'll exercise some restraint of pen and refrain from going deeper, but it should suffice to say this is all a long way of saying that any dismissive tone toward the sav.org site as "that site" having "some" sound information is wholly unwarranted.

Thanks,
Bill

I am sorry if you feel that "That site" sounded like a dig. It's not...

Isn't "some sound information" far more optimistic that saying "some less than sound information"??

And as far as "dismissive tone" the fact remains that mice alone do NOT kill Savannah monitors.

No one is sure the origins of the idea to feed mammals to an invertebrate feeder, but it’s evident today that the few loud, dominant proponents of an all-rodent feeding regimen actually own lucrative frozen rodent feeder businesses.

I was not aware that anyone I gathered information from breeds or sells mice.

The fact is Mice did not kill Chomper, he was fed mainly inverts. Granted mice would not have saved him either.. A properly sealed cage with burrowing soil would have.

By applying the very same husbandry that I endorse (including rodents in the diet) I now have two Savannah Monitors that are nearly identical in body structure to wild specimens. with energy levels through the roof as well.

I'm not comfortable with the dietary recommendations on that website, I honestly think giving "invertebrate only" advice to young, poor, novice keepers will cause more harm than good. The emphasis needs to be deep substrate and adequate thermal spectrum and humidity. This "no rodents" stuff is distracting from much more important issues. The owner of the website is aware of my concerns about this and the "selective" references and partial personal communications that are used. It is a great website but, as evidenced here and elsewhere, this rather extreme dietary position distracts from it.

[Pirarucu]

Well said Bill. I will wholly agree that sav.org was very instrumental in the "monitor revolution". It was certainly the site I first learned about Savs from, and caused me to realize how poorly most were kept, even though my views on feeding have changed since then. I don't think there's really any need for a debate between the two sites. They are both great sites, and much of what is said is agreed on by both. No one's going to triumph in the debate about food items unless someone actually tests both sides themselves and monitors every aspect of the tests, which I don't believe anyone has done.
Agree to disagree, both methods work. People keep and breed savs with some rodents in their diet. Mother nature breeds them on a diet of mostly inverts. The most important aspect of monitor care is the cage, as long as that is set up properly the monitor will do well.
I will say that it should be pointed out to new keepers that savs should be fed as much as they want all the time when it comes to insects, as they are not as nutritionally dense as rodents. What may seem like enough might not be, which could be why there hasn't been much success breeding them on an insect diet.

[savbill]

Isn't "some sound information" far more optimistic that saying "some less than sound information"??
And as far as "dismissive tone" the fact remains that mice alone do NOT kill Savannah monitors.

The fact is Mice did not kill Chomper, he was fed mainly inverts. Granted mice would not have saved him either.. A properly sealed cage with burrowing soil would have.

By applying the very same husbandry that I endorse (including rodents in the diet) I now have two Savannah Monitors that are nearly identical in body structure to wild specimens. with energy levels through the roof as well.

Again, I'm trying to exercise some restraint of pen, so a lot of this I can't necessarily respond to without being more pointed than I'd care to be on a forum.

I also don't want to get into anything about my conversations with Daniel so as to respect personal communications. What I will say is that your quote from him is interesting on two levels.

One, he said a number of times publicly, on various forums, that Bok gears toward a specific diet, one that excludes mammals, and is not opportunistic as other species of monitor are. That's not something I'm concocting or making up in my head, it's on numerous forums.

Second, unless I'm reading the quote below incorrectly, as well as every email or forum post we've ever exchanged, he and I have the same intention.

I fully agree it's complicated for a new/young/poor/inexperienced keeper to shy away from feeder rodents as sole nutritional source, and that the focus should more importantly be elsewhere.

Part of the problem is that instead of using the information as an overall direction to aim in to provide better overall care to the animals, a lot of people on forums would latch onto one or two things and use them as ammunition in some grand war against other people on forums. That was never the intention of the site. People took things out of focus and I was accused offline of having an "anti-rodent vendetta" or something, which really perplexed me to no end. It wasn't about the rodents, it was about the dead monitors.

The other problem is the difficulty of the undertaking. There was just too much information out there about the 40 gallon screen topped fish tank and repti-carpet to gain any ground. If presenting the data about the lack of mammals in wild Sav diet would, among many other pieces of info on the site, cause a new/young/poor/inexperienced keeper to stop and think for a moment about what's going on and what they're doing, it could have a positive result for a monitor.

I was not aware that anyone I gathered information from breeds or sells mice.

There are at least three or four prominent keepers I can think of off the top of my head who loudly condemned the idea of feeding Savs any other items than rodents, who owned lucrative feeder businesses. My only point was to ask if what people are saying has anything to do with their financial gain from the pet industry.

Maybe that's where people incorrectly deduced I have some weird vendetta? I honestly couldn't care less, it's not about conspiracy theory, it's about watching what information you rely on, and where it's coming from.

Hope that helps.
Bill

[nepoez]

Hi guys,

It seems that there are successful breeders/owners on both sides and middle of the fence so we already know we can choose any of the options.

I need advise on something. If I were to choose a invert only diet, can I rely on solely crickets and superworms that are properly gut loaded as a diets? If so, how do I properly gut load these insects in order to make the a healthy staple diet.

Similarly if I were to choose rodents only diet, what should I do to prepare them? I've read to inject them with supplements but what supplements exactly?

thx

[smy_749]

Hi guys,

It seems that there are successful breeders/owners on both sides and middle of the fence so we already know we can choose any of the options.

I need advise on something. If I were to choose a invert only diet, can I rely on solely crickets and superworms that are properly gut loaded as a diets? If so, how do I properly gut load these insects in order to make the a healthy staple diet.

Similarly if I were to choose rodents only diet, what should I do to prepare them? I've read to inject them with supplements but what supplements exactly?

thx

I don't think you should be injecting whole prey items with anything as far as I know, however I don't know much. If you can get your hands on some dubias, they are a much better option, reproduce like mad, and dont smell, make noise, or escape. They are like a 20 oz steak and a cricket is like a McDonald chicken burger.

[nepoez]

I don't think you should be injecting whole prey items with anything as far as I know, however I don't know much. If you can get your hands on some dubias, they are a much better option, reproduce like mad, and dont smell, make noise, or escape. They are like a 20 oz steak and a cricket is like a McDonald chicken burger.

yeah i wish, in Canada roaches are illegal :(

[smy_749]

Even frozen ones? Go capture some outlaw roaches and offer them protection/political asylum in your basement. If the police are raiding your house for an illegal roach operation which for some reason I feel is highly unlikely, tell them they are really chubby crickets, they are police officers not biologists. If I ever got a blackthroat/water monitor or something which are illegal in the state of CT, and in the highly unlikely event they found out, I will tell them it is a anery het melanistic leachianus or something Hahaha (I'm not one to break the law, but seriously, dubias probably wouldnt survive the night up in canada anyways, never mind breed)

[jarich]

Hi guys,

It seems that there are successful breeders/owners on both sides and middle of the fence so we already know we can choose any of the options.

I need advise on something. If I were to choose a invert only diet, can I rely on solely crickets and superworms that are properly gut loaded as a diets? If so, how do I properly gut load these insects in order to make the a healthy staple diet.

Similarly if I were to choose rodents only diet, what should I do to prepare them? I've read to inject them with supplements but what supplements exactly?

thx

No, you cannot rely on just crickets and mealworms. It takes variety and knowledge of the nutritional aspects of the inverts to use this diet properly. Supplementing crickets and mealworms wont work, and neither will just supplementing rodents.

Roaches may be illegal but they are still pretty easy to find if you look for them

[nepoez]

No, you cannot rely on just crickets and mealworms. It takes variety and knowledge of the nutritional aspects of the inverts to use this diet properly. Supplementing crickets and mealworms wont work, and neither will just supplementing rodents.

Roaches may be illegal but they are still pretty easy to find if you look for them

thx for pointing out what doesn't work. Now can you please point out what works? thx!

[jarich]

I believe there are numerous places to find what works, Infernalis has his website in his signature with all this already. Bill has his website which largely agrees with Infernalis except for the rodent bit. But to list them again crayfish, earthworms, snails, hornworms, roaches, grasshoppers, some fish and shrimp, fertilized eggs, mice, crickets, mealworms, etc etc etc.

[nepoez]

I believe there are numerous places to find what works, Infernalis has his website in his signature with all this already. Bill has his website which largely agrees with Infernalis except for the rodent bit. But to list them again crayfish, earthworms, snails, hornworms, roaches, grasshoppers, some fish and shrimp, fertilized eggs, mice, crickets, mealworms, etc etc etc.

thx again but none of them tell me details on what to feed the feeders what to gutload them with and that's the missing info I need.

[smy_749]

thx again but none of them tell me details on what to feed the feeders what to gutload them with and that's the missing info I need.


I think they came to the conclusion to just figure out which veggie/fruit is high in calcium and of good nutritional value and feed them that. Check what bearded dragons, uromastyx, iguanas eat as staple foods (I think like kale, dandelion greens, and what not for greens) and feed them those. And correct me if I'm wrong, but it doesn't hurt to dust those with calcium power, and if you've been feeding fish food like me, don't.

[jarich]

I think they came to the conclusion to just figure out which veggie/fruit is high in calcium and of good nutritional value and feed them that. Check what bearded dragons, uromastyx, iguanas eat as staple foods (I think like kale, dandelion greens, and what not for greens) and feed them those. And correct me if I'm wrong, but it doesn't hurt to dust those with calcium power, and if you've been feeding fish food like me, don't.

Yes, please do not gut load with fish food. It is high in phosphorous, and lowers the Ca:P ratio of your feeder insect, which is already low to begin with.

Gut load them with what works for reptiles, as he mentioned, what is good for bearded dragons, iguanas, etc. Greens high in calcium like collard greens, kale, endive, escarole, mustard greens are great, but sometimes not as easy to keep with bugs. Things like squash, carrot, celery, sweet potato are good nutritionally and easy to keep in with bugs. Also you can use alfalfa pellets as a great base feed since they are high in calcium and easy to find in pellet form.

[nepoez]

Yes, please do not gut load with fish food. It is high in phosphorous, and lowers the Ca:P ratio of your feeder insect, which is already low to begin with.

Gut load them with what works for reptiles, as he mentioned, what is good for bearded dragons, iguanas, etc. Greens high in calcium like collard greens, kale, endive, escarole, mustard greens are great, but sometimes not as easy to keep with bugs. Things like squash, carrot, celery, sweet potato are good nutritionally and easy to keep in with bugs. Also you can use alfalfa pellets as a great base feed since they are high in calcium and easy to find in pellet form.

Awesome thanks guys! Will write this down in my notes.