Close Call with a King Cobra

[bronxzoofrank]

I had a close call when a King Cobra escaped at the airport, during my zoo-keeping years; Enjoy, Frank A Close Call with a King Cobra, Ophiophagus hannah | That Reptile Blog That Reptile Blog (http://bitly.com/JueBLx)

[lady_bug87]

Wonderful and amusing read thanks for sharing!

[bronxzoofrank]

Wonderful and amusing read thanks for sharing!

I appreciate your kind words, thank you very much! Best, Frank

[lady_bug87]

It's really cool to have someone of your caliber on the site for feedback and information especially pertaining to the ways we keep animals in our own collections and the types of materials we use to ensure longevity and health with individual species.

[bronxzoofrank]

It's really cool to have someone of your caliber on the site for feedback and information especially pertaining to the ways we keep animals in our own collections and the types of materials we use to ensure longevity and health with individual species.

Much appreciated...glad to be here and I'm sure I'll learn much as well. I'll post care articles from time to time; please let me know if you have any specific interests and I'll send links. I'll stay on top of threads where I've posted, but can't often over too many others, so pl feel free to send me a note re any interesting ones if you have time, best, Frank

[marvelfreak]

It's really cool to have someone of your caliber on the site for feedback and information especially pertaining to the ways we keep animals in our own collections and the types of materials we use to ensure longevity and health with individual species.
I second this. I have be reading though your blog and i love it.

[bronxzoofrank]

Great to hear, thank you very much! Best, Frank

[beardeds4life]

It's really cool to have someone of your caliber on the site for feedback and information especially pertaining to the ways we keep animals in our own collections and the types of materials we use to ensure longevity and health with individual species.

It is. Especially to compare the ways we keep our animals versus how the zoo does it.

[bronxzoofrank]

It is. Especially to compare the ways we keep our animals versus how the zoo does it.

Thanks very much; I'll include references to zoo practices when possible. Please let me know if you have any specific interests, Best, Frank

[infernalis]

It is. Especially to compare the ways we keep our animals versus how the zoo does it.

Some of the same failures that happen in private collections also occur at zoos.

We are all learning new things every day...

[bronxzoofrank]

Some of the same failures that happen in private collections also occur at zoos.

We are all learning new things every day...

Most good zoo people start out by keeping, observing and collecting animals, as did I; here's an article that touches on some of the contributions private hobbyists make to the field Reptile Hobbyists - Helping or Hindering Reptile and Amphibian Conservation? That Reptile Blog (http://bitly.com/NffGMg;) Best, Frank

[Will0W783]

Great read, Frank. I think a lot of people mistakenly call certain species (cobras for one) "aggressive" when they are just responding to a situation we've put them in where they have no hope of escape. When a snake cannot retreat, it's only other option is to defend itself. I've never really worked with king cobras- my mentor has one that backed me into a corner the first time I was over there and still intimidates me - but they are one of my favorite species. They are so majestic and intelligent....such beautiful creatures.

[millertime89]

You've got some great stories. Thanks for sharing them and please keep them coming.

[bronxzoofrank]

Great read, Frank. I think a lot of people mistakenly call certain species (cobras for one) "aggressive" when they are just responding to a situation we've put them in where they have no hope of escape. When a snake cannot retreat, it's only other option is to defend itself. I've never really worked with king cobras- my mentor has one that backed me into a corner the first time I was over there and still intimidates me - but they are one of my favorite species. They are so majestic and intelligent....such beautiful creatures.

Hi Kimberly,

Thanks for the kind words, much appreciated. "aggressive', etc. can be misleading but also useful among people who work with snakes (keeping in mind that individuals in all species vary). For example, when disturbed, some species are likely to bite, some to flee, others to curl up and hide, etc. The species natural history - what works best in nature - as a great effect on this.

As an aside - PLEASE do not out yourself into situations where a cobra is backing you into a corner! I've responded to a great many snakebite emergencies over the years, involving both professionals and hobbyists, and have many sad stories...

Best, Frank

[Zoo Nanny]

Most good zoo people start out by keeping, observing and collecting animals, as did I; here's an article that touches on some of the contributions private hobbyists make to the field Reptile Hobbyists - Helping or Hindering Reptile and Amphibian Conservation? That Reptile Blog (http://bitly.com/NffGMg;) Best, Frank
Frank good article. I worked with Lou when they first started helping with the Karna Blue Butterfly. A bunch of the keepers and volunteers drove up to NH to an airport there to collect the lupine seeds. Lou is an excellent example of hobbyist turned professional. Most of the inverts and herps there are kept according to the systems Lou had set up for his own animals at home.

[bronxzoofrank]

You've got some great stories. Thanks for sharing them and please keep them coming.

Much appreciated, Kyle, Best, Frank

[Will0W783]

Originally posted by Bronxzoofrank: As an aside - PLEASE do not out yourself into situations where a cobra is backing you into a corner! I've responded to a great many snakebite emergencies over the years, involving both professionals and hobbyists, and have many sad stories...

My mentor was between the cobra and me, but I still backed up as far as I could and grabbed a hook. I was prepared and I am sure my mentor wouldn't have let the king get too close, but he was still intimidating. That snake is interesting...when the smell of food is nowhere to be found, he is placid and relaxed, but if he smells food, even if there are no rodents currently in the room, he is 100% ready to go. That day, we had fed the snakes in the next room over and the scent must have wafted in or carried on our clothes.

[bronxzoofrank]

Frank good article. I worked with Lou when they first started helping with the Karna Blue Butterfly. A bunch of the keepers and volunteers drove up to NH to an airport there to collect the lupine seeds. Lou is an excellent example of hobbyist turned professional. Most of the inverts and herps there are kept according to the systems Lou had set up for his own animals at home.

Nice to hear of your experience; good example, as you say,,,..esp needed for inverts, Best, Frank

[bushsnake]

Great read, Frank. I think a lot of people mistakenly call certain species (cobras for one) "aggressive" when they are just responding to a situation we've put them in where they have no hope of escape. When a snake cannot retreat, it's only other option is to defend itself. I've never really worked with king cobras- my mentor has one that backed me into a corner the first time I was over there and still intimidates me - but they are one of my favorite species. They are so majestic and intelligent....such beautiful creatures.
this is true for many snakes but specially venomous.

[bronxzoofrank]

My mentor was between the cobra and me, but I still backed up as far as I could and grabbed a hook. I was prepared and I am sure my mentor wouldn't have let the king get too close, but he was still intimidating. That snake is interesting...when the smell of food is nowhere to be found, he is placid and relaxed, but if he smells food, even if there are no rodents currently in the room, he is 100% ready to go. That day, we had fed the snakes in the next room over and the scent must have wafted in or carried on our clothes.

Hi Kimberly,

What you describe is in line with their usual behavior - high metabolisms, and they actively forage for prey so are primed to move.

Please bear in mind that at major zoos we never enter an enclosure with venomous snakes unless unavoidable; a shift cage is used whenever possible for king cobras, or the animals are worked from outside the exhibit.2 well-experienced keepers must always be present, so that in the event of a bite one can secure or dispatch the animal and begin first aid. Emergency bells are always in reach, and the police or local ambulance company (NYPD in NYC) are familiar with the protocol. Snake bite specialists (doctors) are not common, so arrangements with the appropriate hospital are made. Antivenin is on hand and taken to the hospital (a king cobra bite may require massive amounts, at a cost of thousands of dollars, so arrangements are in place beforehand to have extra helicoptered in from other zoos )...and so on. Sorry if this is old news to you, just wanted to make the point that working with these animals properly is quite a complicated affair, I've attended dozens of bites in my time, and have never found a prvate keeper to be adequately prepared, unfortunately (some zoos fall short in this regard as well, but lawsuits and such tend to limit their lifespans!!!) Best Frank

[Will0W783]

Thanks Frank! I know that I personally will never keep a king cobra. As much as I love to watch them and see pictures/videos of them, they are simply too large and powerful for me to want to own. I enjoy seeing him at my mentor's house, but that's enough for me. He's calmed down quite a bit in the months that I've been going there. I don't personally work with that snake, but he's gorgeous and amazing. I stick with handling the tree vipers and some of the Bitis and Daboia.

On the subject of king cobras, I did have a question for you. My cousin (I can't stand this guy...he is NOT careful and shouldn't have any snakes, let alone hots) has a king cobra that's probably about 6-7 feet long now. He's had this snake for at least 3 years, and sent me a text message the other day worrying about something on its head
When he sent me the picture, the poor snake appears to have at least 20 ticks all stuck on its head and the back of its neck. I told him to pluck off what he could and sterilize the cage, remove all the bedding and place a small piece of a Hot Shot pest strip in there until the ticks were gone.

Does this sound like a good idea? Anything else I should tell him? I've tried to no avail to get him to surrender the snake so I can get it to my mentor for proper care. He won't part with it, but I'm afraid that he wont' bother to get the poor snake proper medical care.

[bronxzoofrank]

Hi Kimberly,

Please do not recommend that your cousin pluck ticks from a king cobras head!!!! Human safety must come first when one is dealing with animals!

The protocols in place when we treat ailing venomous snakes at zoos are even more extensive than I described earlier for care...and even with trained keepers, herpetologists, vets present, and EMS/police at the ready, and many thousands of dollars of antivenin available, accidents happen. What would your cousin, or any private keeper, do if bitten? The commonly held belief that care and experience will spare one a bite is foolhardy, especially when instant, professional help is not present.

please bear in mind that even if one survives, permanent disabilities are frequent (this re any snake). The snake should not be handled, treated, or turned over to another private keeper, no matter how competent that person may seem.

Most major zoos accept venomous snakes as a matter of policy, as a public safety measure. This is the only reasonable option open to your cousin.

Regarding those with an interest in venomous snakes, I can provide assistance to people interested in pursuing a career in herpetology or professional reptile care.

Best, Frank

[Will0W783]

Believe me, Frank, I wish he would surrender the animal. He knows how to pin/restrain venomous snakes and he told me that he has experience pinning and removing ticks before. However, it's deplorable that he allowed such an infestation into his collection, when ticks are easily seen and removed with use of a restraining tube, gloves and tweezers (or preferably longer hemostats). My cousin is far from reasonable...he refuses to part with his animals despite not really keeping them in adequate conditions. I've begged him to bring the snake in question to my mentor, who has decades of experience and can get the snake well but he won't. It's infuriating to me, and at this point I think I need to simply remove him from my life as much as possible. I'm very exacting in my animal husbandry and it makes me sick and furious to see others not do the same....I'm very upset for that poor snake. :(

Regarding reptile care, I'm always open to advice and help to improve my techniques. I am absolutely fascinated and enamored with venomous snakes, especially arboreal vipers. They are amazing feats of evolution to me, and beautiful.

[bronxzoofrank]

Believe me, Frank, I wish he would surrender the animal. He knows how to pin/restrain venomous snakes and he told me that he has experience pinning and removing ticks before. However, it's deplorable that he allowed such an infestation into his collection, when ticks are easily seen and removed with use of a restraining tube, gloves and tweezers (or preferably longer hemostats). My cousin is far from reasonable...he refuses to part with his animals despite not really keeping them in adequate conditions. I've begged him to bring the snake in question to my mentor, who has decades of experience and can get the snake well but he won't. It's infuriating to me, and at this point I think I need to simply remove him from my life as much as possible. I'm very exacting in my animal husbandry and it makes me sick and furious to see others not do the same....I'm very upset for that poor snake. :(

Regarding reptile care, I'm always open to advice and help to improve my techniques. I am absolutely fascinated and enamored with venomous snakes, especially arboreal vipers. They are amazing feats of evolution to me, and beautiful.

Hi Kimberly,

Thanks for the feedback; again , I'm more concerned with human safety than ticks, etc...I understand your passion, I myself gave up a career as a well-paid attorney in midtown Manhattan in order to follow my interest, but I cannot understand the risks people take by working with venomous snakes in private homes. I realize this will not be taken well by many, but it is my honest and considered (as in 40+ years in the field) opinion. I hope all goes well, Best, Frank

[Will0W783]

It is a risk Frank. However, to those of us who keep the venomous snakes, at least the people I know who are responsible keepers (i.e. NOT my cousin), the animals fascinate us and we have a true passion for them. There are many risky hobbies or occupations in this life; some of us just choose to include potentially deadly reptiles among them. I honestly don't see how it's any riskier for private keepers than it is for zoo collections, unless the zoo snakes were tranquilized any time cage work had to be done or they were devenomized. It's a risk to the people who work with the snakes, but it is a personal choice whether the risk is worth it. Just my $0.02.

[bronxzoofrank]

Hi, Thanks for the feedback. Please see my earlier comments re the protocols/expenses etc entailed in zoo work. I've responded to numerous bites in private collections, as have my co-workers, and during my zoo tenure informed of all such bites that occurred elsewhere (details studied to improve responses, treatment, comment on pending legislation, etc). Then there's the experience/training aspect..i.e. at the Bx Zoo, the staff has the benefit of a 100+ year institutional history, contacts and all that implies. There can be no doubt that the risks undertaken by private keepers far exceed those in zoos, despite the fact that zookeepers may handle hundreds of snakes weekly. Statistics support this. I do understand the passion...I myself have given up a great deal, financially and otherwise, in order to pursue it. But, as with other dangerous pursuits, there is a place and an ideal way to go about it. I have wide interests - ants to elephants, literally, and so cannot always understand purists; but even considering that aspect of my personality, given the number of non-venomous snakes out there, in the wild and captivity, and how little we know about most, I cannot see why snake enthusiasts in the private sector need to keep venomous species. Please also bear in mind (and of course this can be applied to any dangerous endeavor) that innocent people are put at risk (including I and others who must search homes for escaped snakes, police who respnd, etc) and that, in the vast majority of cases (at least here in the USA) the costs of treatment is borne by the responding institution, the hospital and others. I encountered only a single (wealthy) individual who was able to pay for his mistakes, financially, over the course of 20+ years involvement with snakebite victims.

But, that being said, I do know that there is little point in my going on about this further, and the fact that I write about venomous snakes draws interest in them. Please be careful, and let me know if you ever need anything, Best regards, frank

[millertime89]

The attitude of "professional" keepers towards private keepers really bothers me. What makes you think that your training and "institutional history" makes you that much better? Many private keepers have learned from the best as well. I would be inclined to trust private keepers more than zoo keepers in some instances because of the lower number of venomous snakes they work with, the good ones don't get complacent because its not a chore. This obviously doesn't imply that all venomous keepers are like this but there are plenty of those that do. I don't know if the risks taken by private keepers is higher either. By some? Sure, but not all, not by a long shot.

[bronxzoofrank]

The attitude of "professional" keepers towards private keepers really bothers me. What makes you think that your training and "institutional history" makes you that much better? Many private keepers have learned from the best as well. I would be inclined to trust private keepers more than zoo keepers in some instances because of the lower number of venomous snakes they work with, the good ones don't get complacent because its not a chore. This obviously doesn't imply that all venomous keepers are like this but there are plenty of those that do. I don't know if the risks taken by private keepers is higher either. By some? Sure, but not all, not by a long shot.

Hello,

Thx for your interest.

In every related article, and in the forward sections of each of my books, I stress that I started out and remain a private animal keeper, as do all good zoologists. I have always been involved in programs that include private folks, from rescuing 10,000+ turtles confiscated in HK to reintroducing a variety of creatures on privately owned land, and so on. Much of this work could not have been done w/o private participation. I continue to acknowledge the strides made in the husbandry of many species by private keepers, many of whom can devote more resources to specific creatures than do zoos, and who work with animals that are not kept in zoos. Here in the US, I'm in close contact with a number of talented and quite wealthy individuals who spend far more, in time and money, on the animals they work with than do most institutions.

However, the training, history, resources available etc in well-funded, well run zoos is indeed far greater than that available to most private folks. As regards venomous snakes, dangerous creatures, etc, that makes all the difference in the world. Please see my earlier comments, re the protocols that must be followed in zoos, the expenses involved, and the time factors that come into play after a bite. And, again, this is something I've been involved in, on both sides and with the best and least known people in the field, for decades...hands on, personally and professionally responsible for consequences, and so on.

Whether or not you choose to believe that training and all makes a difference, the bottom line is that, when bitten, a private keeper will be in much, much greater danger than will someone working in a well-run zoo. No way around that. Believing that someone is too careful, skilled etc to be bitten is unrealistic.

Please, this is just how things are, no need to take it personally,. Professionals are fortunate in being able to follow their passions, no doubt - but in most cases they also sacrifice a great deal (i.e. zoo/museum salaries, even at the highest levels, are unrealistic given the cost of living, in NYC). It is a small field, but there are options for many who wish to pursue such careers.

[millertime89]

I'm not saying training doesn't make a difference, I'm a proponent of a training and licensing system regarding hots, I just don't think the training and skill gap is as different between zoos and skilled private keepers who take their responsibility and the danger involved in keeping these animals lightly.

Furthermore, there are always those zoos that have terrible husbandry and animal control practices when it comes to reptiles. Some are outstanding and some not so much. I've been behind the scenes with curators of reptiles at several zoos that have impressed me, but there are also zoos that do a terrible job with their herps.

I personally keep no hots and have no desire to do so, just my reflection on the industry and the attitudes there-in.

[bronxzoofrank]

Hello,

Nothing to add at this point; I've been involved in every aspect of this for a lifetime and know of what I speak. Good luck with all, Frank

[Aaron_S]

I'm not saying training doesn't make a difference, I'm a proponent of a training and licensing system regarding hots, I just don't think the training and skill gap is as different between zoos and skilled private keepers who take their responsibility and the danger involved in keeping these animals lightly.

Furthermore, there are always those zoos that have terrible husbandry and animal control practices when it comes to reptiles. Some are outstanding and some not so much. I've been behind the scenes with curators of reptiles at several zoos that have impressed me, but there are also zoos that do a terrible job with their herps.

I personally keep no hots and have no desire to do so, just my reflection on the industry and the attitudes there-in.

That's pretty low.

I know Frank has given up on this debate as he is probably already smacking his head off a wall since it'll probably get the idea well before you will.

I would like you to pull out as many statistics about zoo bites and their deaths and "loose cobra in apartment building" stories. I don't think you'll find as nearly many.

There are FAR more people uneducated who keep venomous snakes privately then professionally. It's plain to see by the fact they are sold quite easily at shows and for not very high dollars. Hell, you can look on youtube and see the lack of skill/mentor or even respect for the animals.

Please stop posting in an otherwise worthwhile thread.

[Will0W783]

Originally posted by Aaron_S: There are FAR more people uneducated who keep venomous snakes privately then professionally. It's plain to see by the fact they are sold quite easily at shows and for not very high dollars. Hell, you can look on youtube and see the lack of skill/mentor or even respect for the animals.

While I do keep venomous snakes privately, I have to agree that there is a difference between careless, untrained private keepers and zookeepers. You're not going to get a job as a zookeeper unless you can demonstrate skills, experience and quick thinking with the animals, whereas it's far too easy and cheap for people who have no idea what they are doing to buy them at shows. It is a tricky subject; I do not think that everyone should be banned from keeping venomous snakes because some people don't bother to do it properly, but I would not be opposed to tighter regulation and required training. I've recently found some terrifying YouTube videos demonstrating people working with venomous that have NO business doing so.

I understand that some people are against private ownership of venomous snakes as a blanket rule, and that can get my dander up, but I apologize to Frank if I seemed too defensive. I know that he is extremely knowledgeable and a valuable asset to this forum.

[bronxzoofrank]

Hi all,

Thanks for your interest and support. I'm used to this, and tend not to post articles dealing with venomous animals. Statistics do., of course, show that bites, serious injuries and deaths are more common in private collections.

Comparing the skills of a private to a professional keeper is not a useful exercise. In the private sector, one generally does not have a proper frame of reference to make the comparison. Before my zoo years, I worked for several major animal importers in NYC..back when there were no regs; and I learned from people who, to older zoo curators and such, are legends. Venomous snakes were not a big part of the trade, but we sold all sorts os mammals and herps to zoos. I was working with chimps, ocelots, coatis, giant anteaters and so on by age 13. But when I entered the zoo world I realized I had gained valuable skills, but was clueless as to many aspects of the profession as well.

But aside from all that, look at it this way: how many venomous snake keeping private people have, on hand, the number of vials of the appropriate antivenin (at several thousand dollars per vial, and some of which is very hard to import, even for zoos -- last year, as a consultant, I had to hire Thai-speaking friends to track down money that had been spent by a major zoo for antivenin - process took 7 months, etc) on hand, the commitment of the local police dept or ambulance to respond instantly when notified, and a backup transportation method if that fails, the resources and a plan to get more antivenin choppered to the hospital if, as often happens, more is needed, a trained person present at all times when a cage is opened so that snake can be secured or killed and first aid can be started, this same person must know, and keep up with changes to, the care protocol which must be started as soon as a bite occurs...ie.. limiting spread of venom, process of which varies by group and in some cases by species (the victim cannot move after being bitten, lest venom circulate more quickly); instant updating on the many changes that occur re antivenin needed (snake venom composition evolves quite rapidly as prey species evolve defenses, and this greatly affects treatment), please understand - this is just a quick rambling and poorly worded, sorry) example of some of the considerations that need be addressed; in my long experience, and in among my contacts worldwide, no private keeper has taken care of all of the above).

Re the often voiced criticism that pros are lucky to have such jobs and shouldn't deny others - I am very lucky; I also worked as an attorney, which I hated, first, in order to help support a mother and sister who needed such from an early age; gave up that lucrative career (midtown Manhattan law firm) to work for ridiculously low salaries (even at highest levels within zoo field), always worked 2-3 side jobs (some related, others not at all), and at an age when, in almost any other fields I'd be well set, am still working away at a variety of jobs (most of which thankfully, are interesting)...there are other down and up sides, point being that working with animals, with few exceptions, involves sacrifices for most people.

Again, thanks for the support and for seeing my side, I have a hectic schedule now so will need to hold off on most comments if it such would involve a re-hash of this and earlier posts. Best, Frank

[Will0W783]

Those are good points Frank;the resources available for zoos and large institutions are different from those available for private keepers. In many cases, unless you have a medical affiliation, you cannot import antivenins for private usage. There are permits and procedures involved that a private keeper cannot do. The best we can hope is to know which antivenins the local zoos stock, and have arrangements with them, as well as detailed protocol on how to treat bites from each species you keep. It also helps to have a person designated as the one legally allowed to make decisions if you are unconscious- many hospitals do not know how to properly treat an exotic bite, so it's vital to have someone else who knows how to be able to speak for you should you lose consciousness. So, sure, most private keepers cannot afford to have a stock of antivenin in their own homes, nor can they get the paperwork in order to do so if they can afford it. No one should work with the animals alone; there should always be a second knowledgeable person on hand to assist, and everyone should keep a "Hot Book" - detailed files of the species and number of each that they keep, photos of the animals in question, protocol for treating a bite from each species, as well as a copy of insurance cards and medical records. The folder should also contain an Antivenin Index for referencing antivenins, and the location where each necessary antivenin can be procured. Do all private hot keepers do this? Probably not....but it's how they should.

[bronxzoofrank]

Those are good points Frank;the resources available for zoos and large institutions are different from those available for private keepers. In many cases, unless you have a medical affiliation, you cannot import antivenins for private usage...

Hello,

Thanks again, but, judging from similar conversations held over the years, I think we've covered all of use. I'd rather not get into alternative means of preparing for emergencies, as there are no effective ones...the steps you've outlined, however well-intentioned, are not in any way a substitute for a properly designed and funded emergency protocol. Forgive my saying, but it needs to be said: if someone followed this advice and believed it, they would gain a false sense of security which could very well cost them their life. There is no other way to put it, unfortunately., One cannot arrange for coverage with zoos, one cannot assure that antivenin will be available elsewhere if current supply is not enough, and so on.....even were one aboe to afford this, no zoo would entertain the idea, due to the liability issues (I've advised zoos on the legalities involved, you can trust me on this).

This will all likely be moot in time, in any event. As far as I know, those states that have not legislated against venomous snake ownership will do so in time; in most cases, the matter isn't brought up until a bite or fatality occurs, as there are not all that many people involved, and no real economic incentives one way or the other.

If anyone wishes to explore a career in herpetology, I'll be happy to offer what advice I can.,

Best, Frank

[Will0W783]

With all due respect, Frank, that's YOUR opinion. I'm honestly getting a bit frustrated, but I don't really have the energy nor the desire to argue with you anymore. I take the best precautions that I can to make my (realistically very dangerous) hobby as safe as possible. There is no way to remove all the risk of keeping venomous snakes, but private keepers accept this and make the CHOICE to keep the animals anyway; that's the crux of it really..it's a CHOICE. And it's a choice that we have the right to make. I don't care how much zoo experience you may have, it's arrogant to say that your opinion is the only correct one. I'm done with this thread.

This will all likely be moot in time, in any event. As far as I know, those states that have not legislated against venomous snake ownership will do so in time; in most cases, the matter isn't brought up until a bite or fatality occurs, as there are not all that many people involved, and no real economic incentives one way or the other.
Oh, and thanks for making the threat about legislation against our animals. Yes, I know that many states have laws against keeping venomous. I'm not against regulating it, or requiring training before one can get a permit. However, it's not the government's place to tell us that we can't own them at all. America is a country of personal freedom. The herping community has enough problems with laws being enacted almost all the time against constrictors and other snakes....it's a constant worry to us.

Anyway, I will respectfully agree to disagree with you Frank. I'd appreciate if you'd do the same for me.

[Aaron_S]

...And it's a choice that we have the right to make. ....

I believe this therein lies a problem. I believe it's a privilege and not a right.

[Will0W783]

If it's a privilege, then we keepers need to do all we can to protect our privilege and to ensure that we are trained and prepared as much as possible. :)

I still personally feel that the government has no right to tell me I can't own venomous snakes, or any snakes for that matter. They aren't going to become invasive, they are no threat to anyone that isn't inside my house. In my area, it is too cold for any non-native venomous to survive for more than a day.

I do support mandatory training and permits/licenses for venomous keepers, but I oppose blanket bans. My opinion, I know. You are entitled to yours. I've enjoyed many healthy fun debates with you Aaron; unlike Frank, you acknowledge that other people may have some good points even if you don't agree with them.

[bronxzoofrank]

Regulating dangerous activities is a normal function of government - seat belts, drug use, firearms, food processing, (and in NYC, the size of soft drinks!..obviously that one has some up in arms), tobacco use, and so on....

Drawing distinctions...how long a snake can live etc. - tends to strengthen the case of those seeking to regulate.

Providing opinions is of course our right. All opinions are not, where factual information is involved, however, of the same value. I'm interested in southeast Asian soft-shelled turtles, for example, and have some experience, but my opinions as to how the conservation of some of the rarer species should be handled, or what their evolutionary relationships are to one another, are not as worthwhile as those of Peter Pritchard.

[Will0W783]

So you're saying my opinions are not worth as much as yours???

[infernalis]

With all due respect... Kim, I trust you with hots. No contest.

However, when any Tom, Rick & Harry with a paypal account can simply click "order now" and have a Cobra or Mamba in their possession while living in an apartment building, populated neighbourhood or near a primary school, then I have a problem with it.

If the (often illegally) internet ordered snake should escape, (think this scenario, once it bites the owner, it's going to flee) and enters a populated area, it puts innocent people at mortal risk.

Should firefighters have to enter a burning building (a mortal risk already) only to be bitten by a scared venemous snake who's cage just broke from the heat??

Saying that hots belong in the hands of private keepers is like saying that we should be able to purchase explosives at wal mart.

Certain animals simply don't belong in the private pet trade, because unfortunatly, for every one of us with common sense, there is 2 dozen people who have none.

[bronxzoofrank]

So you're saying my opinions are not worth as much as yours???


It is the factual information and basis for the opinion that is not as valuable, just as mine would not be as valuable in your area of expertise. Here in the US, as I understand it, all opinions are treated as equally valid in terms of the right to be expressed. But they are not, in any area of endeavor, treated the same in terms of their basis in truth, reality, etc....experts are hired to testify at trials, to consult etc, not just anyone who has an opinion. There are degrees of knowledge and expertise in all subjects.

[Aaron_S]

With all due respect... Kim, I trust you with hots. No contest.

However, when any Tom, Rick & Harry with a paypal account can simply click "order now" and have a Cobra or Mamba in their possession while living in an apartment building, populated neighbourhood or near a primary school, then I have a problem with it.

If the (often illegally) internet ordered snake should escape, (think this scenario, once it bites the owner, it's going to flee) and enters a populated area, it puts innocent people at mortal risk.

Should firefighters have to enter a burning building (a mortal risk already) only to be bitten by a scared venemous snake who's cage just broke from the heat??

Saying that hots belong in the hands of private keepers is like saying that we should be able to purchase explosives at wal mart.

Certain animals simply don't belong in the private pet trade, because unfortunatly, for every one of us with common sense, there is 2 dozen people who have none.

I'm glad we share this opinion.

Very well said.

I don't know if it's only because I'm a parent but perspective certainly changes when that happens and there's more than me to just worry about.

[Falconeer999]

I think he's saying that the opinion of many in here are that they are following good procedures in dealing with venomous snakes (and they may be providing the absolute best they can), while he's saying the fact is that professional zoos have more resources to come up with even safer protocols, including the ability to better disaster plan because of relationships with public sector entities (hospitals, emergency responders, etc.) and the cooperation of other professional zoos who also have the same access, thus increasing the chances for a positive outcome in the case of a bite or escape.

There's only so much a private person can do, and this may be a lot, and it may be enough to save you, but a professional zoo is almost always going to have access to a lot more assistance than a private individual (also due in large part from requirements from liability insurance providers).

[infernalis]

I'm glad we share this opinion.

Very well said.

I don't know if it's only because I'm a parent but perspective certainly changes when that happens and there's more than me to just worry about.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to look at some of the idiocies posted on youtube to actually come to the conclusion that 90% of the human population is lacking a chromosome or two.

Mr. tough guy buys a "wicked looking" viper, puts it on display so his buddies will call him awesome, The drinking begins, smoke a little pot, "hey man I dare you to put a mouse in there" "awe dude that would be wicked cool"

TAG

"oh wow man, you ok?" call 911!!!

[Will0W783]

I agree that there are too many dum***es owning snakes in general, let alone venomous. My viewpoint is that there should be required training with a registered, qualified mentor, somewhat like what Florida has set up. If everyone, regardless of the state they lived in, was required to have 500-1000 hours of training with a state-registered mentor, the number of idiots buying venomous just because they look cool, or they think it would be bada** would be far less.
However, it is my viewpoint that it is not fair to prevent those who would keep the animals responsibly and carefully from having them just because some idiots ruined it for them. The stupid people ruin far too many of our privileges in this country.

Anyway, I've stated my viewpoint, and my reasoning for it, several times. It appears that I am in the minority. I will continue to keep my venomous snakes, and enjoy the fascination and wonder they hold for me. I won't post any more on this thread...I honestly don't think that there is any more I can add or say.

[Aaron_S]

I agree that there are too many dum***es owning snakes in general, let alone venomous. My viewpoint is that there should be required training with a registered, qualified mentor, somewhat like what Florida has set up. If everyone, regardless of the state they lived in, was required to have 500-1000 hours of training with a state-registered mentor, the number of idiots buying venomous just because they look cool, or they think it would be bada** would be far less.
However, it is my viewpoint that it is not fair to prevent those who would keep the animals responsibly and carefully from having them just because some idiots ruined it for them. The stupid people ruin far too many of our privileges in this country.

Anyway, I've stated my viewpoint, and my reasoning for it, several times. It appears that I am in the minority. I will continue to keep my venomous snakes, and enjoy the fascination and wonder they hold for me. I won't post any more on this thread...I honestly don't think that there is any more I can add or say.

I agree that there would be less of them but probably not by much. The US has gun control laws and yet there's plenty of people illegally owning them. I do agree that at least it's a step in the right direction and gives some guidance to things.

[Aaron_S]

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to look at some of the idiocies posted on youtube to actually come to the conclusion that 90% of the human population is lacking a chromosome or two.

Mr. tough guy buys a "wicked looking" viper, puts it on display so his buddies will call him awesome, The drinking begins, smoke a little pot, "hey man I dare you to put a mouse in there" "awe dude that would be wicked cool"

TAG

"oh wow man, you ok?" call 911!!!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v111/godzilla99/awesome.jpg

[Will0W783]

Lol Aaron!

Btw, I noticed that certain members' posts have been suspiciously deleted from this thread. They didn't break any rules, just stated their opinion. ...what is wrong with that?

For the record, I agree with them. The constant "talk to me if you want a career in herpetology" seems to be arrogant...I'm sure it's only if we choose to work with "approved" species. I was very excited to see a retired zookeeper join the forum, but I'm very disappointed that he appears to think himself far superior to the rest of us lowly private owners.

[Gungirl]

Very well worded Kim. I agree with your statement and also noticed a few posts vanish.. seems odd how the forum is catering to some while neglecting others opinions. As long as no rules are broken there is no need to delete a post.

[Will0W783]

Exactly Kat!

[Aaron_S]

Very well worded Kim. I agree with your statement and also noticed a few posts vanish.. seems odd how the forum is catering to some while neglecting others opinions. As long as no rules are broken there is no need to delete a post.

It could be an act to "clean up" as a lot of people have made their views on that "issue".

As well as, people can report posts and then can be edited or deleted as the mod sees fit.

[millertime89]

It could be an act to "clean up" as a lot of people have made their views on that "issue".

As well as, people can report posts and then can be edited or deleted as the mod sees fit.

That's an overstepping of admin duties and an abuse of power IMO. Whether this constitutes such I have no comment because I didn't see the posts that were deleted.

The arrogance displayed by some "professionals" is what gets to me. I'm 100% with Kim on the training and licensing aspect in regards to hots, and I think it should be the same for giants and large lizards as well, but that's another topic...

[infernalis]

One day, just for fun, I will assemble just the posts we have deleted, it looks like forum full of people with turrets.

[Aaron_S]

One day, just for fun, I will assemble just the posts we have deleted, it looks like forum full of people with turrets.

Just give me mod status and let the forum know. I fully believe people will scatter left right and center.

[Will0W783]

Nah Aaron, we love you. You'd never get rid of me, muwahahaha!

[Aaron_S]

Thanks Kim :D

In regards to Frank. I think since he has stated he'd like to leave this argument/thread that we just let it die. He has his opinion and he's entitled to it. No matter our thoughts on how arrogant you may think he's being. This isn't a topic I see going anywhere and it would be foolish to chase Frank away when he only just got here.

[beardeds4life]

Lol Aaron!

Btw, I noticed that certain members' posts have been suspiciously deleted from this thread. They didn't break any rules, just stated their opinion. ...what is wrong with that?

For the record, I agree with them. The constant "talk to me if you want a career in herpetology" seems to be arrogant...I'm sure it's only if we choose to work with "approved" species. I was very excited to see a retired zookeeper join the forum, but I'm very disappointed that he appears to think himself far superior to the rest of us lowly private owners.

I agree. Even if it was just an act of cleaning up the thread I still dont agree and do agree that it was an abuse of power. But I do agree that we let it die.

[RandyRhoads]

Should firefighters have to enter a burning building (a mortal risk already) only to be bitten by a scared venemous snake who's cage just broke from the heat??


I thought about this after the whole sign at the bottom of the door stating venomous snakes inside. I can't think of any possible way of a fire or superheated gasses causing enough damage to an enclosure to let the snake out without killing it in the event of a fully involved structure fire requiring interior operations.
Regulating dangerous activities is a normal function of government - seat belts, drug use, firearms, food processing, (and in NYC, the size of soft drinks!..obviously that one has some up in arms), tobacco use, and so on...
Yeah, sometimes a little too much. You can't baby people into living longer because they are too stupid to keep themselves alive. There's a certain natural selection thing going on, or rather, should be, if you take a look at those chromosome lacking individuals...


But aside from all that, look at it this way: how many venomous snake keeping private people have, on hand, the number of vials of the appropriate antivenin (at several thousand dollars per vial, and some of which is very hard to import, even for zoos on hand, the commitment of the local police dept or ambulance to respond instantly when notified, and a backup transportation method if that fails, the resources and a plan to get more antivenin choppered to the hospital if, as often happens, more is needed, a trained person present at all times when a cage is opened so that snake can be secured or killed and first aid can be started, this same person must know, and keep up with changes to, the care protocol which must be started as soon as a bite occurs...ie.. limiting spread of venom, process of which varies by group and in some cases by species (the victim cannot move after being bitten, lest venom circulate more quickly); instant updating on the many changes that occur re antivenin needed (snake venom composition evolves quite rapidly as prey species evolve defenses, and this greatly affects treatment), please understand - this is just a quick rambling and poorly worded, sorry) example of some of the considerations that need be addressed; in my long experience, and in among my contacts worldwide, no private keeper has taken care of all of the above).


Well, you're wrong.

And as far as antivenin, maybe things are different in other states, but here those will only be administered by an MD, regardless if you stock them or not. Paramedics will not administer it, and unless you've had it before, i'd consider you a fool to administer it yourself with the possibility of anaphylaxis killing you faster(species dependant).

[Will0W783]

Very well said, RandyRhoads!

[bronxzoofrank]

Hello all,

I'm re-posting an earlier comment of mine below, for folks who may have missed - re private vs professional keepers; Concerning arrogance - I'm correcting misinformation and dangerous assumptions, based on a lifetime in the field, on the private side and as a herpetologist and, re the legalities of all, as an attorney (the deadliest creatures I've dealt with have been as an attorney in NYC!). It is not arrogant to offer to provide career advice; I have done so for decades, with some very rewarding results. That a reader does not wish to believe what I say does not render the offer arrogant. The comment below, posted earlier, sums up my thoughts re private keepers and includes some comments on the impossibility, in all cases of which I'm aware (basically, all reported bites that occurred here in the US, and many abroad, over a 20+ year period) of a private person being able to assure safety in the event of a snake bite. I won't begin (obviously!) to touch upon related matters - treating an ill snake, cage/home security, and all). Again re arrogance - I mention "my books" below - I have written books (popular) papers (peer reviewed) and so on...it's part of the job, and I enjoy such and have been fortunate and lucky in having had the opportunity to do so...apologies to those who might take the words "my books" as arrogant!

Re deleted comments - in an email notice, I saw one that used crude language; not an obscenity, but not the words of anyone I care to communicate with; I logged on, planning to report the post, but it had not been allowed through or was deleted already.

Earlier Post:
In every related article, and in the forward sections of each of my books, I stress that I started out and remain a private animal keeper, as do all good zoologists. I have always been involved in programs that include private folks, from rescuing 10,000+ turtles confiscated in HK to reintroducing a variety of creatures on privately owned land, and so on. Much of this work could not have been done w/o private participation. I continue to acknowledge the strides made in the husbandry of many species by private keepers, many of whom can devote more resources to specific creatures than do zoos, and who work with animals that are not kept in zoos. Here in the US, I'm in close contact with a number of talented and quite wealthy individuals who spend far more, in time and money, on the animals they work with than do most institutions.

However, the training, history, resources available etc in well-funded, well run zoos is indeed far greater than that available to most private folks. As regards venomous snakes, dangerous creatures, etc, that makes all the difference in the world. Please see my earlier comments, re the protocols that must be followed in zoos, the expenses involved, and the time factors that come into play after a bite. And, again, this is something I've been involved in, on both sides and with the best and least known people in the field, for decades...hands on, personally and professionally responsible for consequences, and so on.

Whether or not you choose to believe that training and all makes a difference, the bottom line is that, when bitten, a private keeper will be in much, much greater danger than will someone working in a well-run zoo. No way around that. Believing that someone is too careful, skilled etc to be bitten is unrealistic.

Please, this is just how things are, no need to take it personally,. Professionals are fortunate in being able to follow their passions, no doubt - but in most cases they also sacrifice a great deal (i.e. zoo/museum salaries, even at the highest levels, are unrealistic given the cost of living, in NYC). It is a small field, but there are options for many who wish to pursue such careers.
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Old 12-10-12, 07:32 PM

[jarich]

Yeah, sometimes a little too much. You can't baby people into living longer because they are too stupid to keep themselves alive. There's a certain natural selection thing going on, or rather, should be, if you take a look at those chromosome lacking individuals...


Well, you're wrong.

And as far as antivenin, maybe things are different in other states, but here those will only be administered by an MD, regardless if you stock them or not. Paramedics will not administer it, and unless you've had it before, i'd consider you a fool to administer it yourself with the possibility of anaphylaxis killing you faster(species dependant).

Actually we do baby people into living longer; we do so because most people are obstinately stupid. This is a pretty good example of such, since I would say at least 90% of the people I have met who keep hots have no business doing so.

And in what way is Frank wrong? Or arrogant for that matter. You are talking to someone who has been professionally handling these cases for 20 plus years, and aside for Kim, all the rest of you just have vague personal opinions. He has books and literally decades of international research to back up his statements, while you are trying to say you feel a certain way and so that should be just as good as Frank's decades of dedicated research. Do you argue with your doctor about cancer treatment because you know someone who had cancer? There is a certain level of knowledge that trumps here and its pretty obvious who has it in this discussion. Im impressed you have taken the time to keep going with this, Frank.

While I dont necessarily think they should be illegal, I do think they should only be able to be kept with a very difficult to achieve license. I also think that they should require very cost prohibitive measures, like insurance and up-to-date anti venin at the local hospital for every species kept. However, thats just an opinion I have without knowing the facts like, say, a professional herpetologist.

Kim, I think you can probably understand that you are in the vast minority when it comes to hot keepers. And the reason that so many hot keepers have access to these animals is because they are not strictly controlled across the entire US. If only one state had those tight regulations you spoke of, it would make no difference. Idiots would hop across the state line and come back with their king cobra or gaboon viper, which happens all the time. You know of the example I told you about here where I walked into that guys apartment that had the cobra in his living room. Its totally illegal in NYC, but he bought it for $200 online and kept in in his apartment. That thing could have easily bit him, slipped into the ducts, and lived for quite some time free roaming and biting whomever it chose to. And that was one unhappy cobra, so Im sure it would have had a field day. Laws like this are not enacted for those who do things the best way they should be done, unfortunately. Laws are enacted because most people are stupid and require control so they dont harm others.

[RandyRhoads]

And in what way is Frank wrong? .
"No private keeper has taken care of all of the above"

I can't speak for every idiot out there, but all the things on that last were pretty standard for keeping hots....

[jarich]

Hi all,

But aside from all that, look at it this way: how many venomous snake keeping private people have, on hand, the number of vials of the appropriate antivenin (at several thousand dollars per vial, and some of which is very hard to import, even for zoos -- last year, as a consultant, I had to hire Thai-speaking friends to track down money that had been spent by a major zoo for antivenin - process took 7 months, etc) on hand, the commitment of the local police dept or ambulance to respond instantly when notified, and a backup transportation method if that fails, the resources and a plan to get more antivenin choppered to the hospital if, as often happens, more is needed, a trained person present at all times when a cage is opened so that snake can be secured or killed and first aid can be started, this same person must know, and keep up with changes to, the care protocol which must be started as soon as a bite occurs...ie.. limiting spread of venom, process of which varies by group and in some cases by species (the victim cannot move after being bitten, lest venom circulate more quickly); instant updating on the many changes that occur re antivenin needed (snake venom composition evolves quite rapidly as prey species evolve defenses, and this greatly affects treatment), please understand - this is just a quick rambling and poorly worded, sorry) example of some of the considerations that need be addressed; in my long experience, and in among my contacts worldwide, no private keeper has taken care of all of the above).


In what way is this standard Randy? I dont know of any hot keeper Ive ever met that had all this in place. Granted Ive probably only met around 20, so my experience is limited, but thats a lot of requirements right there.

Plus, and more importantly, you chopped his quote up and didnt pay attention to the context of rest of the sentence. The full sentence there was this:

"In my long experience, and in among my world contacts, no private keeper has taken care of all of the above"

He didnt say none had anywhere, just that he has never come across one who has.

[RandyRhoads]

"In my long experience, and in among my world contacts, no private keeper has taken care of all of the above"

He didnt say none had anywhere, just that he has never come across one who has.

You are right. But if he hasn't found a single person doing this the correct way, that makes me question his "experience" and what kind of people he does find. Not a single one had it right? That is hard to believe for someone working in the field for so long.

I mean it's more of a standard of necessary resources. Does someone really need countless CroFab vials on hand when they live across the street from a hospital with insane amounts of it because you live in rattlesnake country? Probablly not...

How is it a standard? Isn't most of that covered in the "hot school" thread combined with common sense and simple internet research?

[infernalis]

You are right. But if he hasn't found a single person doing this the correct way, that makes me question his "experience" and what kind of people he does find. Not a single one had it right? That is hard to believe for someone working in the field for so long.

I mean it's more of a standard of necessary resources. Does someone really need countless CroFab vials on hand when they live across the street from a hospital with insane amounts of it because you live in rattlesnake country? Probablly not...

How is it a standard? Isn't most of that covered in the "hot school" thread combined with common sense and simple internet research?

Here you are speaking of an indigenous species of snake, so of course the local hospitals are geared up for snake bites from that (local) species.

Can you tell me that your local hospital has the proper anti venom for a king cobra on hand?? Or some other obscure species from half way around the world?

There is Timber Rattlesnakes & Massasauga rattlesnakes here in upstate New York, so our local hospital is geared for handling those, But I can all but guarantee they don't have the resources for some exotic, tropical animal that is only found somewhere very far away.

[Aaron_S]

You are right. But if he hasn't found a single person doing this the correct way, that makes me question his "experience" and what kind of people he does find. Not a single one had it right? That is hard to believe for someone working in the field for so long.

I mean it's more of a standard of necessary resources. Does someone really need countless CroFab vials on hand when they live across the street from a hospital with insane amounts of it because you live in rattlesnake country? Probablly not...

How is it a standard? Isn't most of that covered in the "hot school" thread combined with common sense and simple internet research?

I'm going with Wayne on this but in a different direction.

This is hugely selfish of the keeper. Another reason I think private keepers SHOULDN'T have them. If you can't afford your own stock of CroFab, for local species then you shouldn't own them. Why should you drain the hospitals stock? It's there for the random kid or person who's hiking and gets bit. It is NOT for the private keeper because they screwed up a water change. Hot keepers who think like are selfish without thinking of the consequences of their actions. It could potentially kill a totally innocent child or person. Butterfly effect for sure.

[infernalis]

I like that response too Aaron.

How many HMO, insurance plans, government health programs, etc.. are going to willingly pay for such a blunder.

I bet homeowners insurance underwriters would cancel the policy in a nanosecond once they discover hots inside the house.

And if they really wanted to be pricks, Children's protective services can show up at your house at any time, Heck I don't even keep hots and CPS showed up here demanding to see my snakes once because a neighbour called it in that they assumed I had hots.

Ever explain the difference between a pueblan milk and a coral snake to a social worker?

[lady_bug87]

white touches black: friend of jack
red touches yellow: could kill a fellow?

[Aaron_S]

I like that response too Aaron.

How many HMO, insurance plans, government health programs, etc.. are going to willingly pay for such a blunder.

I bet homeowners insurance underwriters would cancel the policy in a nanosecond once they discover hots inside the house.

And if they really wanted to be pricks, Children's protective services can show up at your house at any time, Heck I don't even keep hots and CPS showed up here demanding to see my snakes once because a neighbour called it in that they assumed I had hots.

Ever explain the difference between a pueblan milk and a coral snake to a social worker?

That's exactly why I don't have any tarantulas or scorpions or anything of the sort. Everything I keep is completely legal here in my house. That last thing I need is to have my daughter taken away from me because not only did I break the law but someone decided to use my hobby against me.

[MDT]

this is an interesting discussion. as someone who has treated many many pit viper envenomations, i can say the cost one encounters is staggering. the reality is the "average joe" would not be able to obtain CroFab as you'd need Rx and several thousands of dollars to get just the loading dose. having worked in an urban ED for a number of years and being the consulting physician for our local zoo at one point for bites, the availability of old world elapid or viper anti venoms is up to the zoo itself. those meds are typically not kept in most hospitals (the exceptions would likely be in much larger, costal cities)....in oklahoma, if you get tagged by your cobra, you'll get treatment, but it will likely be delayed in trying to obtain the appropriate anti venom. it is a fact that zoos or research institutions will have many more resources than the individual keeper. i'm not advocating in keeping hots vs not keeping them, just saying that franks point about resources is valid. i really don't get the arrogance vibe from him.

to add: i really like your blog frank...thanks for sharing

[Aaron_S]

this is an interesting discussion. as someone who has treated many many pit viper envenomations, i can say the cost one encounters is staggering. the reality is the "average joe" would not be able to obtain CroFab as you'd need Rx and several thousands of dollars to get just the loading dose. having worked in an urban ED for a number of years and being the consulting physician for our local zoo at one point for bites, the availability of old world elapid or viper anti venoms is up to the zoo itself. those meds are typically not kept in most hospitals (the exceptions would likely be in much larger, costal cities)....in oklahoma, if you get tagged by your cobra, you'll get treatment, but it will likely be delayed in trying to obtain the appropriate anti venom. it is a fact that zoos or research institutions will have many more resources than the individual keeper. i'm not advocating in keeping hots vs not keeping them, just saying that franks point about resources is valid. i really don't get the arrogance vibe from him.

to add: i really like your blog frank...thanks for sharing

Exactly why the majority of people shouldn't own them. Can't afford it. Tough.

I can't afford to race cars so tough poop for me for wanting to race cars..

[RandyRhoads]

Can you tell me that your local hospital has the proper anti venom for a king cobra on hand?? Or some other obscure species from half way around the world?
.
No. That's why I have said species dependant and it's a matter of the mandatory recources. That was one example where antivenin wouldn't be needed.

Maybe MDT can help with this one but I think you guys are putting too much into a private keeper stocking their own antivenin. Paramedics wont administer, and i'm pretty sure the ER doc will be hesitant on using something you just brought in with you. Aaron- I can almost promise you if you showed up with your own CroFab at an ER well stocked with it they will be using theirs, so that seems like a waste of not only the keepers money, but the overall stock of antivenin to me.

[MoreliAddict]

No. That's why I have said species dependant and it's a matter of the mandatory recources. That was one example where antivenin wouldn't be needed.

Maybe MDT can help with this one but I think you guys are putting too much into a private keeper stocking their own antivenin. Paramedics wont administer, and i'm pretty sure the ER doc will be hesitant on using something you just brought in with you. Aaron- I can almost promise you if you showed up with your own CroFab at an ER well stocked with it they will be using theirs, so that seems like a waste of not only the keepers money, but the overall stock of antivenin to me.
Thing about anti-venom is that not only is it extremely expensive, but it expires within a few years. Can anyone confirm this?

Would cost $$$$ for a private keeper to keep any anti-venom on hand in the first place..

[Aaron_S]

Thing about anti-venom is that not only is it extremely expensive, but it expires within a few years. Can anyone confirm this?

Would cost $$$$ for a private keeper to keep any anti-venom on hand in the first place..

Yes, but yet it costs a fortune to buy a ferrari yet people still do it and it deters people as well. I think this is my point.

Also, I'll have to dig it up but I did know of a couple keepers who had their own. A doctor would administer it at the hospital. If it was all legal, why not just keep it at the hospital with their stock? So they know it's legit...Oh right, right...people want to do it illegally.

[MDT]

Maybe MDT can help with this one but I think you guys are putting too much into a private keeper stocking their own antivenin. Paramedics wont administer, and i'm pretty sure the ER doc will be hesitant on using something you just brought in with you. Aaron- I can almost promise you if you showed up with your own CroFab at an ER well stocked with it they will be using theirs, so that seems like a waste of not only the keepers money, but the overall stock of antivenin to me.

If you brought me SEALED, UNOPENED, NOT-OUT-OF-DATE, BRAND NAME CroFab, I'd prob give it to you......anything beyond that, I'm giving the hospitals meds. Most docs (who know nothing about snakes and snakebites) would very likely would not. The zoo had protocols pre-established with the receiving ED for them to bring the species appropriate anti venom if there was a bite. But again, CroFab is cheap when compared to some crazy Asian elapid or something like that. And the CroFab will cost (last I checked) around $2500 per 2 vials (don't quote me on this one)....and, figure for a moderate envenomation around 12-18 vials....not cheap.

[RandyRhoads]

If you brought me SEALED, UNOPENED, NOT-OUT-OF-DATE, BRAND NAME CroFab, I'd prob give it to you......anything beyond that, I'm giving the hospitals meds. . Most docs (who know nothing about snakes and snakebites) would very likely would not. .
That's what I figured. How many people want to risk their license/career by trusting something someone just brings in with them.

So tell me, why should I be purchasing CroFab beforehand again? Medical insurance wont pay for it beforehand, but it will after. If I were to spend thousands on it it would probablly expire before being needed, and if it was needed probablly wouldn't be useful....

[Will0W783]

RandyRhoads, I don't think there is any point in continuing this thread. We're just beating a dead horse... I have my viewpoints and opinions, Wayne and Frank and others have theirs. Neither of us will convince the others to sway their minds and I fear this thread will devolve into a "pissing match" like so many others.

If you wish to discuss venomous keeping with other keepers of the animals, there are venomous forums that are far more welcoming and knowledgeable on good captive care in private collections and proper safety measures. Lately, I feel that this forum may not be the best fit for those of us who choose to delve into the fringe aspects of herpetology and work with venomous snakes. I will continue to enjoy my animals legally and responsibly. I cannot control anyone else, but then again, gun laws and drug laws don't stop people from doing those things illegally. No matter what laws we put into effect, there will always be people who are going to take shortcuts and bypass procedures, whether it pertains to gun ownership, driving/car insurance, snake keeping, etc. I do not think that that means we need to punish the ones who do follow the rules.

[MDT]

Kim....since i have become active on this forum, i have been impressed with your knowledge and husbandry. you do not strike me as a "fringe" keeper...i do understand your frustration though. i also agree with your sentiments about punishing those who try to abide by the rules. there will always be some ***-hat that screws it up for everyone else....(your analogy of gun ownership has never been more true than today). i hope you continue to post and be active on the forum.

[Lankyrob]

This ^^^^^

[Will0W783]

Thank you MDT and Lankyrob. It's really hard for me to stay calm and collected with this particular issue; dealing with foolish people taking away my rights is a huge thorn in my side. I also am an avid firearms collector, particularly of historical military rifles. I've seen so much debate and many ill-informed arguments for both sides of the gun ownership debate, much as I've seen many good, but also many ill-informed arguments for both sides of the venomous debate. We cannot stop people who do not care about laws from breaking them. We can however, establish rules and procedures that protect and enable the law-abiding, conscientious citizens, and punish those who skirt the laws. Blanket bans tend not to solve the problems, as many people who would otherwise abide regulations get frustrated and say "oh well, guess I'm illegal now". Others have to tearfully give up livelihoods and passions because of the laws, while the lawbreakers continue doing what they want to anyway. That is all I have to say.

I don't think that I'll leave this forum; however, I'm a good bit less active than I used to be because I haven't liked certain things I see becoming the norm here. I see no need to exhaust my patience reading every idiotic newb thread by people who can't bother to look up an animal's basic care requirements before buying it, and I have no patience for circular arguments. Healthy debate is wonderful, but too few people are willing to try to see things from another's point of view or examine middle ground, so many threads become throat puffing fights. I'm here to learn, and to help others learn.

[MDT]

If I were to spend thousands on it it would probablly expire before being needed, and if it was needed probablly wouldn't be useful....


RR....you're right on this one. Most of the anti venom does expire (thankfully) because bites are rare. this is a huge cost to many zoos. it would be interesting to have frank jump in here to address how his zoo handled anti venom and its cost. i can only speak about our local zoo and it is fairly small compared to larger cities.

[Aaron_S]

That's what I figured. How many people want to risk their license/career by trusting something someone just brings in with them.

So tell me, why should I be purchasing CroFab beforehand again? Medical insurance wont pay for it beforehand, but it will after. If I were to spend thousands on it it would probablly expire before being needed, and if it was needed probablly wouldn't be useful....

Randy, as Kim said we're all going to have to agree to disagree once again. That's the usual on how Kim and I debate these and I think in a few weeks I'll ask her for another round ;)

As stated though, if you DID buy it, and it was as MDT described it then it would be used.

[beardeds4life]

Yes, but yet it costs a fortune to buy a ferrari yet people still do it and it deters people as well. I think this is my point.

Ferrari's and antivenin have nothing to do with each other. These are two totally different things. And a fortune to one person isnt always a fortune to the person with the ferrari ;)

Anyway Kim, knowing that you collect firearms I can honestly say that you are the first woman I have met that keeps firearms AND venomous snakes. You are awesome!!!!

[Will0W783]

Thanks beardeds4life! Aaron, bring it on- I greatly enjoy our debates. :)

[Aaron_S]

Ferrari's and antivenin have nothing to do with each other. These are two totally different things. And a fortune to one person isnt always a fortune to the person with the ferrari ;)

Anyway Kim, knowing that you collect firearms I can honestly say that you are the first woman I have met that keeps firearms AND venomous snakes. You are awesome!!!!

You clearly missed my point.

Kim, I plan to. I will wait til after the holidays though.

[Will0W783]

sounds good

[bronxzoofrank]

Thanks to MDT, Aaron (apologies to those I've missed, rushing here...)for providing useful factual info and pointing out where my words were quoted out of context; I had lost interest in continuing, but am glad you took up the slack;

Re doctors, etc..most will not administer antivenin w/o an ID by a herpetologist, zookeeper, etc; this holds even where expertise had been developed by doctors in both snake biology and snakebite treatment, i.e. Jacobi Hosp in the Bronx; in fact, antivenin is not generally kept in hospitals; protocol in NYC is that keepers, curators, etc are contacted when a bite occurs; they must then get to the Bx Zoo where the antivenin is located, bring those that will most likely be needed based on the incident description, go to the hospital, or home, or police station where snake is located, ID snake, then go to hosp.; we were assisted in this by NYPD cars & helicopters, ambulances etc (at great expense to taxpayers as few victims in position to pay), but even so this procedure greatly increases the time that elapses from bite to antivenin administration, but those who established the protocol thought it worth the risk; I trust i need not go into the implications for private owners,...;

doctors in certain western US states, Australia and elsewhere perhaps, who have developed expertise, may administer antivenin w/o above protocol where common native snakes are involved; otherwise not...as mentioned, venom evolves rather quickly in some species, and this can affect treatment choice; timber rattlesnake venom in northern populations varies markedly from those in the south, even more so over the range of certain western rattlesnakes, etc...; this type of info must be available as it is learned; internet searches are not appropriate - an established network of researchers, doctors, herpetologists etc is needed. then there are unstudied species, etc...

Re the comment as to how expenses are handled at Bx Zoo; the zoo purchases antivenin, which as mentioned can be a difficult process even when payment is made; long delays, govt red tape (FDA and many others involved) and so on complicate the process. In 4 of the incidents I responded to (all involving the same wealthy individual) reimbursement was likely made by the victim for meds, hosp care, etc. Criminal penalties were not imposed as the suburban community he lived in did not ban venomous snakes (it does now, of course). In all other of my cases, and the vast majority of those dealt with by co-workers and numerous colleagues, the victims could not pay for the antivenin, or, I imagine, most of the followup hospital care or the criminal fines imposed. So the expense was born by the zoos/zoo donors and, re the police expenses, etc, by the taxpayers (who of course also pay to house and feed the victims if jail time results).

Re children - this is an important point, thanks for raising; I know of several incidents where action was taken by city/local child welfare agencies; no matter where in the US an incident occurs, CW agencies are always., w/o fail, contacted if children are present; action taken varies. Children have been killed by escaped large constrictors; I cannot recall any venomous incidents right now (yes, children have been killed by dogs, cows, pigs etc...hopefully no need to continue in this vein...)

Re dangers to emergency service persons, etc...In one incident I attended, a police officer was bitten by a snake, which was never recovered, in the course of searching a crime scene; the owner had venomous snakes and could not be trusted as to the ID of the individual that had bitten the officer; the officer was not envenomated (the stress of the situation caused several classic symptoms, however!).

In another, police officers responding to a burgler alarm encountered 30+ rattlesnakes, most poorly caged, 2 at large. No one was bitten, but keepers searching within walls etc are of course at risk...

I once had to intervene when an enraged owner objected, physically, to the removal of his animals; this occurred when the police officers on site had been called away for a more pressing emergency; I was unscathed, physically and legally (even criminals can sometimes sue those they attack!), but had to waste a good deal of time with reports, etc. Obviously, researches, zookeepers, police and others legitimately working with ven snakes resent and are endangered by antivenin shortages that sometimes occur after victims are treated. I could go on...

Re the comment as to the suggestion that my experience with the Bx Zoo, altho long, might not have been all that useful as I hadn't run into private keepers well prepared for a bite: it's easy enough to check into this online; added to the the 21 years with the Bx Zoo is 19 years with other zoos, museums and some of the best known (legendary to old timers) animal importers in the US, and work (field/zoos) in Venezuela, Japan, Costa Rica, Mexico and elsewhere....

I'm not going to respond to this thread after this point, except if assistance is requested (note: this is not arrogance - I have and hopefully will continue to help others, as I have been helped innumerable times by others in those innumerable areas in which I lack expertise) or new facts are posted (note: not arrogant - facts can and should be distinguished from fiction or opinions based on misconceptions or poor research, and they are more important than such, at least here).

I usually provide general answers to venomous snake care questions elsewhere or in person, and let it go at that. I felt compelled to expand on my answers here because, early on, there were disturbing comments about being backed into a corner by a king cobra, that such was not all that dangerous because a "mentor" was present, questions re tick removal from the head of a king cobra, and so on (or words to that affect..). I believe it would have been irresponsible not to reply, but I've done all that can be done at this point.

I'll post elsewhere on this site, and here re venomous snake conservation etc, but the insulting language used by some here has convinced me not to continue with this thread.
I was labelled arrogant, and even came across a post where 2 people were discussing my supposed arrogance among themselves! At least 1 sophomoric, crudely worded comment was deleted by the administrator. I've not run into this in any of the 3,000+ posts on my blog, or elsewhere. I criticized people's dangerous habits, knowledge of the subject, etc.... not personality. I'm sure all here are familiar with the personality traits, common habits, levels of expertise, interests (some illegal in some states, or everywhere) that are said to be common among private ven snake keepers. I myself have dealt with people who indeed have fit these profiles..but I did not raise those points, and I will not expand upon them now.

At one point it was said that I "threatened" people with the loss of their collections (or words to that effect); I'm not a legislator, and so have no authority to change laws. I have testified before fact-finding legislative bodies, etc., and had written (here) what I knew to be true - most states/municipalities will likely legislate against ven snake ownership, and when bites occur this often happens rather quickly. I have no interest in the "loss of rights" type concerns that seem to inflame many (not just re snakes, of course) as I am quite happy with how such matters are handled in the USA.

One comment intimated that I believed private keepers to be "lowly" or words to that effect. A casual review of my work will reveal this to a completely unfounded statement. Hundreds of my articles (see here, ie: Reptile Hobbyists - Helping or Hindering Reptile and Amphibian Conservation? That Reptile Blog (http://bitly.com/NffGMg)) dwell on the value of hobbyists; in the forward of my first book, the BX Zoo's volunteer org is given as much acknowledgement as is the zoo's upper management; in other books hobbyist friends receive greater attention than do prof colleagues and so on...each of my books contain natural history info, but all are written for private keepers, as are my Sierra Club Know Card sets, innumerable talks, etc. When I was working for a certain zoo, this type of work was to my detriment, professionally. My blog articles, even those dealing with zoo animals, conservation, etc, are sponsored by a company that sells pets and pet supplies. Again, I could go on...

Best regards, Frank

[MDT]

Thanks frank for responding, and you confirmed what I suspected about the larger facilities. And again, I never got an arrogance thing. You bring a level of expertise that a lot of us don't have (at least I know I don't)....

Even with established protocols under the best of circumstances, significant envenomations are a cluster (just as is any "weird" event). I happened to be on duty when a guy at our zoo was pretty significantly envenomated by a Gila monster. The ED scene was ridiculous. People crowded into the treatment room to see the "bite victim". I think they thought he was gonna turn into some lizard or something. The patient was pretty sick and required intensive intervention (obviously no anti venom, but dropping blood pressure and airway compromise)...trying to gain scene control was interesting.

Anyway....though I probably won't ever keep venomous animals, I love hearing about those that do. Hopefully we can all agree that we need to maintain impeccable safety standards and everyone can stay safe.

[bronxzoofrank]

Thanks frank for responding, and you confirmed what I suspected about the larger facilities. And again, I never got an arrogance thing. You bring a level of expertise that a lot of us don't have (at least I know I don't)....

Even with established protocols under the best of circumstances, significant envenomations are a cluster (just as is any "weird" event). I happened to be on duty when a guy at our zoo was pretty significantly envenomated by a Gila monster. The ED scene was ridiculous. People crowded into the treatment room to see the "bite victim". I think they thought he was gonna turn into some lizard or something. The patient was pretty sick and required intensive intervention (obviously no anti venom, but dropping blood pressure and airway compromise)...trying to gain scene control was interesting.

Anyway....though I probably won't ever keep venomous animals, I love hearing about those that do. Hopefully we can all agree that we need to maintain impeccable safety standards and everyone can stay safe.

That's an interesting report, thank you. Many treat Gila's with little caution; in zoos, even in the more cautious zoos, they are routinely moved by hand, via the tail; while adults can be safely grabbed by the tail, youngsters can swing up and bite if grasped in this manner...I know of 2 zookeepers who somehow missed out on learning this "fine point".

Best, Frank

[RandyRhoads]

People crowded into the treatment room to see the "bite victim". I think they thought he was gonna turn into some lizard or something..


:laugh::laugh::laugh: :laugh:Picturing the scene, dozens of long necked ostreich looking people poking their heads in.

[Will0W783]

Thanks for clarifying yourself Frank. I think you took my posting about the king at my mentor's house wrong. I should have been more careful with my words apparently. The snake came out of the cage when it was feeding; it had food in its mouth; my mentor was in control with his hook and cage shield and i was on the other side of the room. The sudden advance of the snake, its size and impressiveness made me inatinctively back up. It startled me how confident and quick the animal was, but I was not under attack cornered. Sorry for the confusion.
As for my cousin's king with the ticks- would you have preferred the poor thing be allowed to suffer coveted in parasites? If one takes on the responsibility of owning a dangerous animal, one accepts the risks of caring for it. I did the best i could given my limited pohealth aer the situation. Id hoped that, given yoir experience, you could have suggested medicine. I never expected an attack on the private ownership of venomous like you came across in your posts.
I maintain that in your posts and pm's you could be interpreted as arrogant; you certainly state strong opposition to hot keeping, yet then you claim private owners contribute great details and discoveries.
I am definitely displeased with how this thread has turned out.
However I am constantly seeking knowledge and new information as pertains to the health and care of my snakes. If you ever have information or scientific advances re the species I adore, I'd be more than willing to move past this. However, I'd appreciate it if you'd stop acting like you know whats best for all other herpers. You may have decades of zoo experience, but you are not the only expert re specific classes of snakes on this forum. We have many excellent knowledgeable members on here...I can think of a few I've butted heads with in the past and since grown to respect.
If you want respect here, respect the rest of us.

[bronxzoofrank]

Thanks for clarifying yourself Frank. I think you took my posting about the king at my mentor's house wrong. I should have been more careful with my words apparently. The snake came out of the cage when it was feeding; it had food in its mouth; my mentor was in control with his hook and cage shield and i was on the other side of the room. The sudden advance of the snake, its size and impressiveness made me inatinctively back up. It startled me how confident and quick the animal was, but I was not under attack cornered. Sorry for the confusion.
As for my cousin's king with the ticks- would you have preferred the poor thing be allowed to suffer coveted in parasites? If one takes on the responsibility of owning a dangerous animal, one accepts the risks of caring for it. I did the best i could given my limited pohealth aer the situation. Id hoped that, given yoir experience, you could have suggested medicine. I never expected an attack on the private ownership of venomous like you came across in your posts.
I maintain that in your posts and pm's you could be interpreted as arrogant; you certainly state strong opposition to hot keeping, yet then you claim private owners contribute great details and discoveries.
I am definitely displeased with how this thread has turned out.
However I am constantly seeking knowledge and new information as pertains to the health and care of my snakes. If you ever have information or scientific advances re the species I adore, I'd be more than willing to move past this. However, I'd appreciate it if you'd stop acting like you know whats best for all other herpers. You may have decades of zoo experience, but you are not the only expert re specific classes of snakes on this forum. We have many excellent knowledgeable members on here...I can think of a few I've butted heads with in the past and since grown to respect.
If you want respect here, respect the rest of us.

I would have preferred your cousin left the ticks...his life is more important than that of the snakes' making a bad decision to keep one does not change that.

I see no point in the cobra incident any further.

Re care and the dangers involved in keeping venomous animals at home, my information is more accurate that what I've seen posted here. If by "what is best" you mean re "choice" freedom" lifestyle and other such terms, I have no interest in that.

I am not courting respect here, and have no illusions as to what can be accomplished; hopefully someone whose mind is not yet set will benefit.

[StudentoReptile]

I for one have been following this thread with interest, and have enjoyed Frank's posts immensely. I don't see many hot keepers that share such a broad, well-rounded perspective on these matters, but it is refreshing to know there are still a few out there that do. I can only name a handful personally, and these are the people I would seek advice from should I ever decide (again) to get into hots.

Whether you court it or not, Frank, you have my respect.

[bronxzoofrank]

I for one have been following this thread with interest, and have enjoyed Frank's posts immensely. I don't see many hot keepers that share such a broad, well-rounded perspective on these matters, but it is refreshing to know there are still a few out there that do. I can only name a handful personally, and these are the people I would seek advice from should I ever decide (again) to get into hots.

Whether you court it or not, Frank, you have my respect.

Much appreciated, sorry for generating so much to read, Best, Frank

[StudentoReptile]

No need to apologize. More info is better than less, in my book.

[TheTaipan]

Very close call. wow